As a person living in Germany, I won't buy this.

[Zaku]

There is no need for change them - cause they are not the problem here.

Then what's the problem?
If you think what PDS does is illegal you should write to your country's consumer protection services and they will make a legal move(if it's really illegal, which it is not).

 

[Tivish]

Then what's the problem?
If you think what PDS does is illegal you should write to your country's consumer protection services and they will make a legal move.

The consumer protection services? No the Police is the one i should call if they would do any iligals.

The just overreact - thats all.

 

[Terh Rumnatarn]

And I don't want to buy the German version, because I'm allowed to import the uncut version. The laws of the Index apply for games, not the laws for propaganda material.

Don't know if trolling or not. You do realize that the law is ambiguous and a game can be interpreted atm as propaganda. You aren't allowed to import any uncut version. If someone outside the country wants to sell you the copy, they won't be able to. For a company to sell smth in Germany needs a german branch (distribution etc), and that german branch can be sued for selling propaganda. You won't be able to import without inflicting damage to another entity.

There is no need for change them - cause they are not the problem here.

Well, they are. PI is only trying to protect itself from future legal implication as jail time. The fact that even more germans fail to see the flaws in their system troubles me.

 

[potski]

Geo lock is unnecessary and kicks the EU law. That's the opinion of the EU parliament: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/...mmerce-and-digital-innovation-says-Parliament

This is what that article says:

"end unjustified geo-blocking practices, so as to improve EU consumers' access to goods and services."

No-one outside of neo-nazis is going to say that the German laws are unjustified. No democratic politician, inside or outside Germany, will stand up and demand swastika's etc. And the EU can, and do, accept that local laws can over-ride EU laws.

There is nothing here preventing access to the game. Everyone in Germany can buy HOI4. Everyone complaining can buy this game.

They complain that they want "the uncut version", they demand the right to see the Austrian corporal's face. The guy who destroyed their country, with it split down the middle for nearly 50 years. And 6 million other things.

There is no uncut version sold internationally, everyone in every country will get HOI without the symbols, and with blacked out Hitler. Did you really miss that Daniel and the other presenters in WWW based in Sweden are playing with a game which has blacked out Hitler?

That's the game you buy in Germany, and that's the game you buy in UK and France, etc. So again no reason for the EU to have any concerns about this at all. Nor anyone in Germany responsible for enforcing their laws.

Paradox have produced a free DLC which has the historical artwork for the German Nazis. It's free, you don't pay for it. So consumer laws in the EU are irrelevant. You have no legal right to get things which are free.

This DLC is available through Steam. They have put in place arrangements to ensure that it is not available to their customers who they know are in Germany. Steam are the distributors of the game, not Paradox. Even if you buy direct from Paradox you are buying a Steam key, and Steam take a cut of the money you pay.

Paradox' confusion about this issue suggests to me that this whole issue is driven by Steam. They can probably distribute the game in Germany to people under 18 as long as they don't provide the content in the DLC as part of the base game.

So all of the ranting is based on completely incorrect information - that there is an "uncut" version available in other countries. There is not. And the ranting is that they want their free DLC with the war criminals faces. It's pathetic, regardless of German law.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

Then what's the problem?
If you think what PDS does is illegal you should write to your country's consumer protection services and they will make a legal move.

It's not illegal. because there aren't any laws for geo locks, only unnecessary.

The problem is, that the false law is used for the lock. Media, in Germany, can fall under the Index. From A to E. A and B apply for games. A is for everything, which is 18+, but can be advertised without a problem. B is for the titles, which contain certain symbols like swastikas. It's forbidden to advertise and sell the games on this list within Germany, but the ownership of these games is legal, as long, as you use them for your own purpose. That's called "Verbreitungsverbot". Index C and D is completely forbidden and can't be examined by the publicity, but games don't fall under these two. E is unimportant and something like a "nominal member".

§86 is for progaganda material like flags, uniforms, medals and so on. For physical stuff. There can be exceptions for museums, art and even toys. For example: It's forbidden to have a flag with a swastika, but a toy soldier, which is holding such a flag, is allowed, if it isn't used for... uhm... propaganda. And then even the term of "propaganda" is a pure matter of interpretation.

 

[piscatorcompos]

What about the artbook? Has it been altered to be in line with German legislation? Ubi had to recall all versions of SH5 because of a swastika in one picture.

Any artbook is legal in Germany. You could show Hitler and Mussolini being intimate on a huge pile of Swastikas.
It might go in the index meaning you cannot advertise or even display it and have to ask for it at the shop. It remains legal as any book, movie, painting etc. is considered art.

 

[Tivish]

Don't know if trolling or not. You do realize that the law is ambiguous and a game can be interpreted atm as propaganda. You aren't allowed to import any uncut version. If someone outside the country wants to sell you the copy, they won't be able to. For a company to sell smth in Germany needs a german branch (distribution etc), and that german branch can be sued for selling propaganda. You won't be able to import without inflicting damage to another entity.

Well, they are. PI is only trying to protect itself from future legal implication as jail time. The fact that even more germans fail to see the flaws in their system troubles me.

There is no need for geolock - not even a bit and if there were a need for it - why there is no geolock for their other HoI Games now? Its only HoI4 - and they were surprised about that ... they just overreact. If they would have asked a german lawyer they would know there is no need for geolock. But obviously they didnt. They just fantasize on it.

 

[Amaror]

Don't know if trolling or not. You do realize that the law is ambiguous and a game can be interpreted atm as propaganda. You aren't allowed to import any uncut version. If someone outside the country wants to sell you the copy, they won't be able to. For a company to sell smth in Germany needs a german branch (distribution etc), and that german branch can be sued for selling propaganda. You won't be able to import without inflicting damage to another entity.

Well, they are. PI is only trying to protect itself from future legal implication as jail time. The fact that even more germans fail to see the flaws in their system troubles me.

Ok let's just assume for a moment that you are right. That Paradox cannot possibly do anything to not geoblock their game.
Then why don't they properly tell their customers about it?
The german steam store page doesn't have any indication on it that you are buying a censored product. Something that every single other censored game has. Every single one, even the Publishers with the most consumer-unfriendly practices put this warning on the steam pages, but paradox just doesn't bother for some reason.
Additionally why are we only now, after preorders started, hearing about this. The fact that non-steam keys will not work in germany is freaking crucial information for customers. And the only indication that this is the case are a few lonely threads on this forum, while there should be a warning about it on every storefront. As I said, every other geoblocked game has this sort of warning but paradox just doesn't bother.
And we have been asking them about this for month. I have made many threads asking whether or not the game was going to be geoblocked and every single time they just locked the thread without answer.
Even if we assume that paradox is forced to put the geoblock into place, the fact that they made no effort whatsoever to inform their customers about it is absolutly unacceptable.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

Any artbook is legal in Germany. You could show Hitler and Mussolini being intimate on a huge pile of Swastikas.
It might go in the index meaning you cannot advertise or even display it and have to ask for it at the shop. It remains legal as any book, movie, painting etc. is considered art.

Art don't fall under this law. It would be rated with an +18 and put on Index A with a additional prohibition of advertising in the publicity.

 

[Zaku]

The problem is, that the false law is used for the lock. Media, in Germany, can fall under the Index. From A to E. A and B apply for games. A is for everything, which is 18+, but can be advertised without a problem. B is for the titles, which contains certain symbols like swastikas. It's forbidden to advertise and sell the games on this list within Germany, but the ownership of these games is legal, as long, as you use them for your own purpose. That's called "Verbreitungsverbot". Index C and D is completely forbidden and can't be examined by the publicity, but games don't fall under these two. E is unimportant and something like a "nominal member".

How is this a problem for PDS?
This is why I told that if german people want to change their laws they should do so. PDS used the safest legal route they were given.

It's not illegal. because there aren't any laws for geo locks, only unnecessary.

Irrelevant.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

How is this a problem for PDS?
This is why I told that if german people want to change their laws they should do so. PDS used the safest legal route they were given.

It's a problem for Paradox, because they apply a geo lock, even, if it isn't needed.

Why should we change a law? Because other people don't understand it?

 

[Zaku]

Why shouldn't we change a law? Because other people don't understand it?

Strawman arguement. I even said that if you want you should try to push for a law change.

It's a problem for Paradox, because they apply a geo lock, even, if it isn't needed.

If it is, or isn't needed is not your decision. What they did is perfectly legal in the eyes of the German law. Again, this is the safest route legally, so I don't blame them.

 

[Tivish]

What they did is perfectly legal in the eyes of the German law. I'm sure they have lawyers who know a great deal more of German laws then us.

No - cause what they did is acually illegal in Germany, in Sweden too. And if they would have those lawyers - they wouldnt make this illegal actions they did.

 

[Lifthrasil]

Get a IP generator.....
Insert new country IP
Swich your steam account to the new country
Buy the game from the black market(Sry wantes to say free market)
Install it and play it
Drink something to celebrate cuz now your a mini hacker

then have Steam find out what you did
risk Steam banning your account and therefore loosing all your games.

any more bright ideas?

using VPN might not be THAT big a problem if it is just for activation. But a geoblock can also mean that you can not PLAY your game in Germany, ever!
That means I'm essentially burning 40-90€.

I would propose that non-Germans or people who have no clue about the legal or technical situation just refrain from posting their guesswork here.

 

[Zaku]

No - cause what they did is acually illegal in Germany, in Sweden too. And if they would have those lawyers - they wouldnt make this illegal actions they did.

What illegal actions?
As I said if you think they are doing something illegal you should contact customer protection services.

 

[Dojo704]

Guys, Paradox wont change their opinion on this. And the laws wont change anytime soon too. So instead of shitstorming, how about we find a way to get around the Problem and finally get the version, that everyone gets (apart from us excluded germans).

How about this. I´ll get my car. take 4 of you with me and we will activate our keys just across the border in france, poland or denmark. Should be fine. just need a laptop and a wi-fi hotspot in another country. no hate, no problems

 

[Tivish]

What illegal actions?

promote a game, get money for it and dont supply the customer

 

[Zaku]

promote a game, get money for it and dont supply the customer

Where did that happen?

 

[Terh Rumnatarn]

Ok let's just assume for a moment that you are right. That Paradox cannot possibly do anything to not geoblock their game.
Then why don't they properly tell their customers about it?
The german steam store page doesn't have any indication on it that you are buying a censored product. Something that every single other censored game has. Every single one, even the Publishers with the most consumer-unfriendly practices put this warning on the steam pages, but paradox just doesn't bother for some reason.
Additionally why are we only now, after preorders started, hearing about this. The fact that non-steam keys will not work in germany is freaking crucial information for customers. And the only indication that this is the case are a few lonely threads on this forum, while there should be a warning about it on every storefront. As I said, every other geoblocked game has this sort of warning but paradox just doesn't bother.
And we have been asking them about this for month. I have made many threads asking whether or not the game was going to be geoblocked and every single time they just locked the thread without answer.
Even if we assume that paradox is forced to put the geoblock into place, the fact that they made no effort whatsoever to inform their customers about it is absolutly unacceptable.

I feel you, and this is the other part of the equation. I also live here, also pre-ordered, the fact that this is a PR mess angers me.
Nevertheless this is a game and a private company. Atm I'm living in this country that inhibits freedom of speech and this bothers me a whole lot more.
For PI I can find excuses as not enough man power in the PR department, trying to avoid negative publicity (that worked well), or the fact that the game is not released yet (this fiasco is only for pre-order, so the entire marketing staff/legal department wasn't involved).
On the other hand, the fact that in some aspects I have less rights than someone in China or a dictatorial country in Africa makes me haywire.

 

[GsusNSV]

If the game would be the same for everyone, no one would know, that they cut something out.

I have re-read the "German version FAQ" (pinned threat). Actually the German version IS the base game, with this Nazi/sensitiv stuff beeing a separate DLC (which is not avaiable in Germany.)