Nebels are actually more survivable than the xylophone. I swear that thing blows up if a passing fog bank gets it wet. I don't actually know how it compares to the 41 in practice, since i only use 42s - which are vastly superior.
Arty Balance is really bad.
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I never use the 42 because the 41s are always adequate for deleting a town/forest or as a panic button to stop a tank push.
imo the nebel's greatest utility is that it saves you hundreds of points of attack planes by disrupting groups of tanks at once
imo the nebel's greatest utility is that it saves you hundreds of points of attack planes by disrupting groups of tanks at once
I'm just going to have to disagree with you on it. Nebels are so very soft. You just have to counter them as soon as you know where they're at. They simply lack the durability of the other arty. And their reload rate is very slow. Plus, as mentioned before, that have no ammo, a supply truck is required to be parked next to them.
Artillery as a whole could use a slight update, what i mean whether or not they get the advantages that come from having a friendly ground or air observing your hits. Also ALL rocket artillery shouldn't benefit to the best of my knowledge of WW-2 Rockets from the observer to target dispersion to hit.
The one thing i could see that could be added is the ability for units to dig in slightly after a set time in a location. such as if i have my Pak-40/76mm/6pdr sitting in the hedge row i could start doing a 30-45 sec dig in where they get a slight buff to not getting smoked by air or artillery bight from a lucky direct hit.
The one thing i could see that could be added is the ability for units to dig in slightly after a set time in a location. such as if i have my Pak-40/76mm/6pdr sitting in the hedge row i could start doing a 30-45 sec dig in where they get a slight buff to not getting smoked by air or artillery bight from a lucky direct hit.
the two nebel both have a 6 men crew. by comparison the typical towed howitzer have a 8 men crew. They are not that fragile.
The Xylophone is pure HE. Both nebel get HE-I. The DOT make a big difference
I can see the artillery meta setting back in, feels like EE...in a bad way. Not fun.
Rockets need to go back to RD style where they mainly stun and there need to be less artillery pieces in play in general, rocket and tube.
It's not an axis vs. allies issue, its being able to reverse the outcome of a hardfought town/factory battle with a click.
Rockets need to go back to RD style where they mainly stun and there need to be less artillery pieces in play in general, rocket and tube.
It's not an axis vs. allies issue, its being able to reverse the outcome of a hardfought town/factory battle with a click.
Just when i was really starting to like the infantry gameplay of SD, the nebelwerfer was revealed to make all the MOUT gameplay in the world pointless.
Invested +200 points of infantry into a town? Too bad, they're all now either blasted to ribbons or melted into puddles by a single barrage from a nebel. Now, think fast! Unless you have the micro abilities of a professional South Korean Starcraft player you can only do one of two things in time, reinforce your obliterated frontline to stop the charge that is already inbound or try to play "guess the direction the rocket launcher scuttled off in" and pray your counter-battery actually deals enough damage to kill the launcher.
Invested +200 points of infantry into a town? Too bad, they're all now either blasted to ribbons or melted into puddles by a single barrage from a nebel. Now, think fast! Unless you have the micro abilities of a professional South Korean Starcraft player you can only do one of two things in time, reinforce your obliterated frontline to stop the charge that is already inbound or try to play "guess the direction the rocket launcher scuttled off in" and pray your counter-battery actually deals enough damage to kill the launcher.
Dude, seriously, RD arty is way more effective than the one implemented in steel division. We currently have no arty piece in SD that can kill "heavy" tanks like the jumbo or panthers like the ATACMS can (2 times a 100% sucess chance when the targets do not move). The high priece arty pieces like the K-9, the ceaser, the as-90 and others have a much higher ROF and are way more mobile and, if managed proberly (move after each salvo), are almost immun to counter battery. Try that with SD howitzers
. If you nerf the rocket arty, complaining will start about off map artillery (which has almost the same effect as the nebelwerfer and is much safer to use and thankfully limited) and if you nerf that or arty in general, you have sitzkrieg and air superiority becomes even more of a thing.
There are no AP artillery in SD so that's obviously not the rocket artillery I was comparing them to. DUDE SERIOUSLY.
Dude, seriously, RD arty is way more effective than the one implemented in steel division. We currently have no arty piece in SD that can kill "heavy" tanks like the jumbo or panthers like the ATACMS can (2 times a 100% sucess chance when the targets do not move). The high priece arty pieces like the K-9, the ceaser, the as-90 and others have a much higher ROF and are way more mobile and, if managed proberly (move after each salvo), are almost immun to counter battery. Try that with SD howitzers
If you nerf the rocket arty, complaining will start about off map artillery (which has almost the same effect as the nebelwerfer and is much safer to use and thankfully limited) and if you nerf that or arty in general, you have sitzkrieg and air superiority becomes even more of a thing.
Yeah @Graphic, what were you thinking comparing WWII artillery to modern SPGs and cruise missiles?
Real talk though; is it really that much different? On two separate occasions now I've lost two M10s to a single barrage from a nebelwerfer. If losing 8 AV tank destroyers to 125 or 65 point rocket artillery isn't a sign things need changing, I don't know what is.
There are lots of signs of things that needs changing, another one could be the pinpoint accuracy of bombers / the armor value of the jumbo / 12 man strenght of allied mortars / op nebelwerfer / op panthers / the aa vs air balance / just pick your topic.
I don't like the nebelwefer / off map arty / mortar spam as well, but I think its worth enduring it, if it punishes players for blobbing 200+ points of infantry into towns or amassing 800+ points of panthers at one single spot. If you dont have units like the nebelwerfer / calliope/ wurfrahmen or off map arty, you'll have chokepoints full of infantry or german tanks with tons of aa behind it that are almost impossible to crack open.
Edit: You're right, it should not be able to kill 8 AV tanks
Next thing is the overall balance, from my limited experience so far, the allied infantry is overall better than the german one and the german tanks and arty capabilties are used to some extend to balance that out a bit. If you nerf the arty of the panzergrenadiers, you'll need to buff them elswhere or nerf the Indianheads / scots.
If you start comparing arty meta of RD or Wargame you have to take all units into account, not just cherry picking on rocket arty. And yes, i know that any comparison between WW II and modern arty lacks, but I'm not the one that started it, although the "Hurr Durr, Nebelwerfer is op" is similiar to the "Hurr Durr, ATACAMS is op" discussion.
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Absolutely agree - it feels very static and arty is too strong! Mostly arty is covered by a recon and AT.
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Towns full of infantry should be tough nuts to crack, they should be the linchpin of a defensive line. It should take effort and tactics to clear an enemy from a city or flank around it. Being able to simply use the nebelwerfer to literally erase the town, buildings and all, with one click is frankly not fun for anyone.
Each infantry has it's own strengths and weaknesses in different areas. In the boccage German squads with the double MG42s are murderous with only BARs and Brens for the allies to respond with, with certain exception units like LMG Rifles. In towns the allies, or at least the Americans, have more going for them with close range semi-automatic rifles to fall back on fighting it out with Kar 98s, again with exceptions like the SS-Stosstruppen with their SMGs of attack-moving doom.
I'd personally propose that all rocket artillery be changed into stun weapons, airbursting rockets would realistically have men cowering in their foxholes but wouldn't obliterate structures and positions. It would still make them a great prelude to an attack but would still give the defender some chance to recover without losing an entire section of his line to a sudden barrage they likely could not foresee and have a chance to avoid, like a regular shelling. Gun arty for killing, rockets for stunning would promote deck diversity and improve gameplay in my opinion.
The thing is, nebelwefers aren't the unicorns that ATACMS are. With ATACMS you have good tank killing power but you have to know precisely where the target is, hope he doesn't see the rocket inbound, and hope he doesn't move. It's a sniper that you can see coming a mile away, high-risk for a questionable payoff.
Nebelwefers on the other hand come in 3x2 cards for the '41s and 3x1 for the '42. They're small and easy to hide and fly relatively fast, so once it fires it's already to late to avoid the impact. Even if you only get one shot they are nearly guaranteed to hit the target and blast a hole in the opponent's defenses due to the massive AoE and target area hit.
I haven't played any of the Wargames in forever so I can't speak to the meta, but it's apples to oranges with ATACMS vs. nebelwerfer for their respective games. One is a sniper meant to nail high value targets and the other is an "I win" delete button for urban combat.
Losing an open top vehicle to arty doesn't seem exactly outlandish.
But then I've once lost a Bef. Panther G to off map artillery. Does that mean we have to nerf off map arty ?
IMHO right now the real issue is rather mortar spam rather than nebelwerfer spam, with the 2nd ID being a big culprit here.
Yes nebelwerfers can be powerful and annoying but they have a whole heap of disadvantages to go with. When I'm playing against a good opponent, my nebelwerfers don't last. At the first sign of a shot (they take some time to shoot all six barrels) I'm getting counter-battered. And that's perfectly ok, nebels are high risk, high pay type of things. If you buy too much nebels, it means you're not getting any other arty which is also quite a risky move.
I wouldn't mind nerfing all nebels to be 1 per card to avoid too intense spam in 3v3/4v4, but I think it's important that they remain powerful enough. The SS mechanized needs all the advantages it can get, those nifty 88m pak can't do everything either.
I have a question. How is someone suppose to counter an arty with 4000m range so far behind the enemy lines that counter battery isn't an option and sending planes over means going over their aa net and since its so close to where their fighters spawn its basically a 1 way trip?
An excellent question.
That's why 4000m arty is an abomination. It can only lead to range creep and deprecation of current shorter range arty pieces.
That's why 4000m arty is an abomination. It can only lead to range creep and deprecation of current shorter range arty pieces.
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As for the town argument, what about off map arty? As it is a potential one click town eraser with even lower risk than the nebelwerfer, should that one be removed as well?
Regarding the ATACMS argument, calling that unit "a high risk with a questionable payoff" is... ah well. Have a look at all the discussions on the WG forum, on reddit or on steam about it. You'll find plenty of opinions about the ATACMS there, but I think that only a handfull at best would agree that its a) high risk and that it has a b) questionable payoff. That unit is capable of winning complete matches within the first two minutes if it hits the initial colummn at the start of the game. Even if does not hit anything, it forces units off the road or to a temporary stop, granting you the ability to reach certain spots on the maps first, giving you a good head start. And all that with only the first of multiple salvos. That is no high risk or questionable payoff at all. If it kills at least one TBU / T-80U a pair of BUKS for example it has earned its initial deployment costs. Usually I harvest multiple amounts of that sum over the course of one game and I'm not an extraordinary good player. Also RD has the "I win" town removal buttons as well, the burratino for example or even worse, the isreali napalm arty. And I'd also argue that you need that gameplay wise, even more given the current phases meta in SD to prevent too much Sitzkrieg or insurmountable defense positions that once established in phase A can not be conquered later on.