Artisan should be a Worker job (aka please let slaves make my tables and chairs)

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Armed Avacado

Second Lieutenant
48 Badges
Mar 23, 2018
170
57
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
What if we had a setting, either a new slavery type under species rights or a policy of its own, that allowed slaves to become artisans, giving them more political power in exchange? After all, there were real-life examples in the U.S. of "city slaves" (however relevant that is to galactic empires...).

This could easily be abused by those who stack slave resource output modifiers: Slaver Guilds, Ironfisted, Slave Processing building, etc. When these are used in combination to this new specialist slavery setting, we need some mechanic to debuff them without undercutting their main purpose.
 

Hyomoto

Major
53 Badges
Dec 2, 2015
723
198
  • Magicka
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Island Bound
  • Empire of Sin
  • Empire of Sin - Premium Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Surviving Mars
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
Well, unless Stellaris chooses to include worker's unions I don't think you'll have to worry about "what's cheaper, slave labor or machine labor?" The answer is slave labor. Machines are expensive. However, what's more reliable? Machine labor.
 

Gyrvendal

Lt. General
97 Badges
Oct 2, 2012
1.522
1.889
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • King Arthur II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
Slaver guilds are meh because you can't control the number of slaves, meaning you can't have all-slave thrall worlds nor all-specialist Ecumenopoli or Habitats. Besides you have the same set of species traits for slaves and specialists, meaning no specialisation.

It's much better to have Xeno slaves (or the super awesome proles from syncretic evolution), so you can optimize traits for each production, easily control population etc.

IMO slaves are extremely powerful in the current version, because they have such low CG maintenance, so even clerk jobs which have such low production are worth it if they are done by slaves. (thrifty slaves are awesome btw, kinda ridiculous since slaves can't have money...).
 
Last edited:

BroAdso

Private
93 Badges
Sep 3, 2015
21
23
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
Slaver guilds are meh because you can't control the bumber of slaves, meaning you can't have all-slave thrall worlds nor all-specialist Ecumenopoli or Habitats. Besides you have the same set of species traits for slaves and specialists, meaning no specialisation.

It's much better to have Xeno slaves (or the super awesome proles from syncretic evolution), so you can optimize traits for each production, easily control population etc.

IMO slaves are extremely powerful in the current version, because they have such low CG maintenance, so even clerk jobs which have such low production are worth it if they are done by slaves. (thrifty slaves are awesome btw, kinda ridiculous since slaves can't have money...).

Yeah, Slaver Guilds is a little hard to understand as a perk because there are so many other ways to attain a good slave-focused outcome on authoritarian. That's particularly true in 2.2 when it's much easier to pick up a large number and wide variety of foreign species POPs than before, and then set them to slavery and watch them grow. Slaver Guilds would be much better if it, say, granted access to a better version of the Slave Processing Facility, or increased slave output and decreased slave political power, or added special 'slave lord' jobs to planets like Aristocratic Elite or Technocracy add nobles and science directors or...something. It's just really hard to see Slaver Guilds as anything other than a self-imposed RP restriction.

On the slave-money note, though, there have been so many different forms of slavery in Earth history, some of which put people who were 'slaves' in commercial positions as shopkeepers or traders in goods for their owners, that in the darkness of the far future I have to imagine there are an even wider variety of forms of cruel bondage which aren't limited to physical labor. Imagine life-debts and consumer slavery for instance, or some evil form of chemical dependence introduced to slave populations requiring them to get a dose every, say, eight hours, but leaves them otherwise capable of a wide variety of tasks and living a life with generally free will and movement.
 

I_AM_King_Midas

Colonel
87 Badges
Feb 1, 2013
930
516
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • 500k Club
Would you trust disenfranchised, poorly-treated slaves to design a fridge or washing machine and then implement an assembly pipeline for it? No? Me neither. If they were educated enough to do it in the first place they'd probably secretly turn them into bombs or something.

Remember that consumer goods are also consumed by your researchers. It includes highly specialised technical devices. Consumer goods does not mean furniture.
In the real world, who do you think is making your Iphone? Its not people in the middle class that are on those assembly lines.
 

Aquilegia

Major
60 Badges
Aug 23, 2008
741
487
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Sengoku
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines
Slaver guilds are meh because you can't control the bumber of slaves, meaning you can't have all-slave thrall worlds nor all-specialist Ecumenopoli or Habitats. Besides you have the same set of species traits for slaves and specialists, meaning no specialisation.

It's much better to have Xeno slaves (or the super awesome proles from syncretic evolution), so you can optimize traits for each production, easily control population etc.

IMO slaves are extremely powerful in the current version, because they have such low CG maintenance, so even clerk jobs which have such low production are worth it if they are done by slaves. (thrifty slaves are awesome btw, kinda ridiculous since slaves can't have money...).

Historically slaves could have money and did a whole range of jobs depending on time period and culture. The clerk jobs also simulate a whole range of low-education service jobs so I think it's fair for slaves to be 'clerks'. I don't think artisans should be worker strata though. The no easy specialisation with slave guild doesn't even look that bad, since slaves do help out in the early game (and you can still use them in habitats/ecumenopolis on clerk jobs).

But maybe a policy added to slave guilds could help (maybe even as a planetary edict):
- No own pop slaves (default)
- Normal slavery: 30% of pops are slaves
- High slavery: 60% of pops are slaves
 

Vitruvian Guar

Major
11 Badges
Apr 12, 2017
601
1
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
Like where I mentioned the Ming Dynasty of the 15th century not investing in Manchurian steel, because it was cheaper to put more sharecroppers to work in the rice fields, so they never had an Industrial Revolution like Britain?

Exactly, and we are having 23rd century here.

Neither slaves nor machines are inherently better systems, they're just relatively better. An environment that supports societies that have a large population, with high growth, will necessarily have little in the way of capital. This is just how it works. India, Nigeria, Mexico, and Pakistan are all young, low capital economies IRL. Therefore they tend to have large amounts of unskilled labor and very little money to spend. Conversely, the United States, Germany, and Japan are all middle aged, getting older, and have a massive amount of capital because of it, so they tend to invest in machines to do their work.

Again only till the machines are more expensive. When you can get 10 slaves produce as mush as 1 machine and a machine costs 10 times more than a slave - it's fine. But the cost/production ratio of a slave is constant while machines production is growing and their cost is reducing. Biological species are not optimized for non-stop mining and machines are. So from a moment it's economically unefficient to use slave pickaxing the minerals and the society have to use some aspects of automatization like give them a jackhammer (I know it's not how mining works, it's just an example). And the cycle continues. Once again we reach the point where it's cheaper to use machines, we get a new level of automatization and now slaves are pulling levers and pressing buttons

Of course, slavery oriented societies have less initiative to invent machines. But those who hadn't done it wouldn't have gone to the space.
 

Kat Tsun

Captain
73 Badges
Dec 30, 2012
307
124
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris
  • Prison Architect
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Victoria 2
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
Well, unless Stellaris chooses to include worker's unions I don't think you'll have to worry about "what's cheaper, slave labor or machine labor?" The answer is slave labor. Machines are expensive. However, what's more reliable? Machine labor.

A broken machine has infinite unreliability. A poorly made machine has poor reliability. Humans tend to be closer to a Gaussian distribution individually, and a power distribution collectively, in their ability to produce things. Machines are more extreme, either being impossibly good, or utterly useless, depending on the job.

That said, were the Silicon Valley-esque idea of machines being absolutely superior to men true, then Qing China would have been crisscrossed with railroads by 1800. Which, naturally, did not happen, because railroads are expensive. Even though the Ming and Qing Dynasties were growing substantially, they eventually stalled out, and Qing became a shell of its former self when it hit the limit of labor growth. Its attempts to restrict growth had the opposite effect and it ended up overshooting in population as it restrained farm ownership (people had more kids to work more farmland to produce more rice, instead of investing in machines as was the intent), causing (eventually, and only in part) a massive famine in the latter 19th century that killed millions of people. Without mechanized agriculture and ability to move food (and soldiers) quickly, it sorta fell apart.

Unfortunately, like the labor theory of value holding water (wherein companies that fired their top executives would end up making money), machines are not cheaper. They're extremely expensive, to produce, to install, to maintain, and to design, costing orders of magnitude more than an equivalent labor-based factory run by foremen and skilled artisans, but these costs are better eaten by economies that lack the labor for the cheaper manual factory in the first place. When your population is stagnant, or shrinking, it's cheaper to try to turn the remaining people into PhDs than to try to uncover the unknowable demographic mystery of why economies trend towards demographic collapse. It's why the factory of the world was the PRC in the 1990s, and is now shifting, however slowly, to Africa (Nigeria, Congo, and Kenya, mostly), India (maybe), and Southeast Asia as the PRC becomes more and more a capital-based, labor restrained economy; while the latter are still young, demographically growing economies that can produce lots of goods for the rising import economies.

Neither machines nor labor are inherently superior. Their relative superiority comes from what the environment they exist within selects for.

In practice this tends to mean as a economy grows, if you want to buy a linear time interpretation, it eventually needs to shift from a slave economy (cf. Ancient Rome, feudal Europe, China's entire history, etc.) to a free economy that eschews labor for capital investment, because as people become richer and wealthier (or, perhaps, not even that) they have fewer babies. This makes it really hard to rely on a system that requires large amounts of freely available farmhands to do work, but makes it relatively easy to make a robot that can do something that all the farmhands in the land put together couldn't do.

In game it might be that slavery is biased towards colonization while free economies are biased towards inward growth. So slave economies end up being war mongers in the mid-game who invade their neighbors interstellar hydrogen while free economies end up being on the defensive who invest bigly in growing their planets. There are shreds of this in Stellaris, but it's not actually implemented as a true system, it's mostly just emergent. With sufficient whacking away at mineral deficits you can eventually form a titanic slave autarky, but that requires serious effort and major subsidization until you hit the economic singularity that nets you 1k mineral/food/energy production across the board.

The only weakness of slave economies ATM is that they require a fair amount of foresight ingame.

Exactly, and we are having 23rd century here.

No, Stellaris pretty much models what a video game company in Sweden views a 21st century economy as, with certain allowances for science fiction tropes like space slavery and whatnot. The map is not the territory and Stellaris is not an actual representation of the "23rd century".

Again only till the machines are more expensive. When you can get 10 slaves produce as mush as 1 machine and a machine costs 10 times more than a slave - it's fine. But the cost/production ratio of a slave is constant while machines production is growing and their cost is reducing.

What is the cost of a machine that hasn't been invented yet?

If what you were saying is true then you would expect Qing China to have been a miracle paradise appearing all the world as the United States did in the same timeframe. It wasn't. It fell apart, economically and politically, because it was incapable of shifting away from a labor economy to a capital economy. Because its policies backfired, its population growth kept going, and most importantly, it got stuck in an "equilibrium trap".

It was always cheaper in China to hire a new farmhand than to invent a railroad or something, because the distances involved in moving iron ore from Manchuria to the Yangtze were extremely big, there were plenty of navigable waterways in the Yangtze to move food and lumber instead, and there was always going to be more people to do work.

Machines are not, and never have been, inherently "cheaper" than labor.

Biological species are not optimized for non-stop mining and machines are. So from a moment it's economically unefficient to use slave pickaxing the minerals and the society have to use some aspects of automatization like give them a jackhammer (I know it's not how mining works, it's just an example). And the cycle continues. Once again we reach the point where it's cheaper to use machines, we get a new level of automatization and now slaves are pulling levers and pressing buttons

Except automation actually seems to have hit a wall, much like kleptocracy, feudalism, and slavery did before it, so that's not really the case. Automation was "the future" about 30 years ago, not so much today with increasing failures like Tesla Motors soaking up government subsidies just to try to stay afloat (let alone solvent) due to their giving short shrift to the power of labor and embracing the machine instead.

Anyway, you do not need "all the ore". You only need "as much ore as you need". If you can achieve this with manual labor or shallow mining, you will not seek to achieve more, because there is no need for the extra effort.

This is the historical norm for mankind. Shallow mines running out of tin meant that people shifted away from bronze in the 1st century AD, to iron, in Western Europe. Similar economic choices were made in Syria, India, and China at other points in time. Machines are only interesting in the past because they were the path of least resistance.

What you're describing is people choosing the path of least resistance, which is not always "more machines", otherwise the Romans would've invented steam powered, bronze backhoes and fantasy dwarf mines to get at tin deep under the earth. No, instead they went bankrupt. Then the Goths and Visigoths and Franks just found some iron ore and dug that up with their hands and picks instead.

Partially this can be explained by increasing education over time (the Solow Curve) and partially it can be explained by increased efficiency of energy use over time (we've gone from the muscle age to the machine age since the 1600s), courtesy of the water wheel, the steam engine, etc. We may also say it's due to the other factors of production, such as geography, where countries which lacked for reliable sources of water ended up getting short shrift from the industrial age when competitors appeared that, having relied on the "worse" water wheel due to natural waterways presence, ended up overtaking them dramatically due to developments of future technologies (i.e. electricity).

Of course, the last case is that of the United States, a veritable industrial backwater in 1800, becoming the preeminent industrial power of the globe by 1900; versus the United Kingdom, which had undergone the inversion. One of the main theories for why this occurred is because British industry tended to be focused around disparate cottage industries (made possible by the relatively portable steam/coal engine) connected by railways, while the United States had to make do with large, contiguous industrial zones near waterways. In the short term, the UK outproduced the United States because it could move goods about as fast as a waterway, and there aren't many waterways in the U.S. to compete with the railroad, but in the long term they shot themselves in the foot since when the USA was able to produce motive power irrespective of water power, in the form of electricity, it had experience and industrial/organizational expertise needed to produce Fordist megafactories. The UK had skilled ateliers, which although individually productive and ingenious, conferred no advantages (and many disadvantages) in an age where the limiting factor was now communications distance between workers and factory designers.

Of course, slavery oriented societies have less initiative to invent machines. But those who hadn't done it wouldn't have gone to the space.

The last seriously important slave economy to exist was Nazi Germany. They did not lack for initiative, and they probably would have existed long enough to go to space (arguably, they already did, since V-2 rockets breached the Karman Line at least once). I'm not sure what you're arguing here besides conflating Stellaris with some view of the actual 23rd century, though.

I'm just trying to inject realism into the game because suggesting to make games "more realistic" is my raison d'etre.

That, and having slave economies require different materials for maintaining their jobs would make sense, since they shouldn't produce a lot of money/energy to begin with. It would also be an interesting mechanic, since as it stands, slave economies and free economies are basically the same thing, except slave economies are better because they can achieve autarky more readily in line with the general playstyle of "paint the map <color>".

Not enough to be OP, but enough to make the skill floor and effort required to win as them much lower than that of free economies. Stack food/mine/energy districts at the start, then shift to building clerk jobs, and set your trade policy to produce CGs. You are done until you need to expand your clerk buildings to the next tier, but you can easily plan for this by having crystal fabricators or mines build ahead of the expansion and putting specialists in there. Combined with the tech benefits of slaves in general you will usually outproduce anyone you come across of equal size unless they are also a slave economy.

Once you've colonized about a dozen 20-25 size planets like this, you should be big enough to become a complete autarky. A little foresight is needed to make it work, but it's only the three basic resources you're looking at, plus trade value (which can be attained simply by spamming commercial buildings), but it's not difficult at all to start producing, at or near 1K food/minerals/energy/CGs, around 2300-2350. Earlier perhaps if you get a lucky starting position.

There's no serious downside to picking slavery, basically.
 
Last edited:

Gyrvendal

Lt. General
97 Badges
Oct 2, 2012
1.522
1.889
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • King Arthur II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
It's just really hard to see Slaver Guilds as anything other than a self-imposed RP restriction.
The main point of this civic IMO, is it is the only way to have any slavery as a xenophile. It is there to roleplay a xenophile/authoritarian society that enslaves everybody in a non-racist way...

Either that , or a fanatic xenophobe that purges all xenos and needs slaves from their own species.
 

Kat Tsun

Captain
73 Badges
Dec 30, 2012
307
124
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris
  • Prison Architect
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Victoria 2
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
Imagine life-debts and consumer slavery for instance, or some evil form of chemical dependence introduced to slave populations requiring them to get a dose every, say, eight hours, but leaves them otherwise capable of a wide variety of tasks and living a life with generally free will and movement.

TBF, "life debts" and "chemical dependence" are just debtors' prison and modern prostitution, respectively. Slavery guilds are weak, sure, but there's no reason to not explicitly enslave every population that isn't your primary population. The production bonuses for basic resource production makes it a no-brainer. The only real hard part is finding enough 20-25 size worlds with large amounts of basic districts, which takes time and influence. Two of each is usually sufficient to start building Dyson Sphere and Matter Decompressor, though.
 

Hyomoto

Major
53 Badges
Dec 2, 2015
723
198
  • Magicka
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Island Bound
  • Empire of Sin
  • Empire of Sin - Premium Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Surviving Mars
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
@Kat Tsun - How many years will it take for an barely-paid rickshaw puller to pay for a Yaris? Let alone an Audi. Yes, a broken down machine has "infinite unreliability", but so does a dead person. It might surprise you to find out that the term "computer" comes from the job of the person it replaced. People used to work as "computers" doing calculations. Originally because there were no computers, then because a room full of people with slide rules and paper were cheaper than one gigantic, expensive and slow mechanical replacement. Even though early computers broke down constantly and were expensive to maintain, it could churn out calculations with 100% reliability. Once the speed met or exceeded the humans it was replacing, no one works as a computer any more. Now, there would never be a reason to ever use a slave workforce, computers are far cheaper and infinitely more reliable. But take something like waiting tables: it's far cheaper to train and hire thousands of workers than it would be to build one serving robot.

The point is the importance of a machine in a task is the reliability of the output, and if that reliability doesn't matter or can be made up for with numbers, people are far cheaper. I'm willing to concede there is a sliding scale here, but assuming a task allows for a few hundred workers or an autonomous machine, the people will be cheaper and the machines more reliable. Both sides require varying forms of maintenance, the difference is the machine always produces the same output. Hence, people are cheaper but machines are more reliable.

There are still tasks to which only one or the other is suitable.
 

r3xm0rt1s

Colonel
58 Badges
May 16, 2017
869
980
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
Hmm... what do you think isn't true here? If you take a raw resource focusing build don't be surprised to have more raw resources than you need and sell them. And if your economy is made from uneducated slaves obviously you would suffer from manufactored goods shortage. Seems pretty obvious to me.
What shortage? It's not like my slaves get any goods. It just takes longer to grow pops to fill those artisan jobs when every other new pop is a slave. But I save in pop upkeep, much more I think. Furthermore, that slave can become a miner to feed minerals to other artisans, or clerk to increase trade value and amenities in an ecumenopolis. Amenities increase stability, which gives production and trade bonus. Trade can directly become consumer goods too.

I have much less problems with consumer goods when I am a slaver than otherwise.
 

Vitruvian Guar

Major
11 Badges
Apr 12, 2017
601
1
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
No, Stellaris pretty much models what a video game company in Sweden views a 21st century economy as, with certain allowances for science fiction tropes like space slavery and whatnot. The map is not the territory and Stellaris is not an actual representation of the "23rd century".

The map is not a territory indeed. IRL 23rd century most likely won't be the one pictured in the game. But still it's a map of 23rd century made by 21st century game studio, even if the map is inaccurate, it's neither a map of 15th century China, nor a 21st centure Sweden.



Except automation actually seems to have hit a wall, much like kleptocracy, feudalism, and slavery did before it, so that's not really the case. Automation was "the future" about 30 years ago, not so much today with increasing failures like Tesla Motors soaking up government subsidies just to try to stay afloat (let alone solvent) due to their giving short shrift to the power of labor and embracing the machine instead.

That doesn't seems plausible as we are getting autopiloted cars right now and multiple corporations are working on it. Moores law keeps working and so on. Also in Stellaris there is a new cycle of automatization with robots so it definetely hadn't hit the wall yet.


Anyway, you do not need "all the ore". You only need "as much ore as you need". If you can achieve this with manual labor or shallow mining, you will not seek to achieve more, because there is no need for the extra effort.

Yeah, and my thesis is if you can get "enough" minerals with your pickaxe slaves than you are not ready to be a space-empire

The last seriously important slave economy to exist was Nazi Germany. They did not lack for initiative, and they probably would have existed long enough to go to space (arguably, they already did, since V-2 rockets breached the Karman Line at least once).

Hmm. Do you mean their death camps? Seems more like a forced labour purge for me. And they were not a Stellaris starting empire for sure. You know, getting to space is easy, staying there that's what is hard.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here besides conflating Stellaris with some view of the actual 23rd century, though.

Basicaly, that current system seems realistic enough. It's not something arbitrary and unexplainable. And that it makes more sense for future setting than the alternatives which comes to mind.
 

Kat Tsun

Captain
73 Badges
Dec 30, 2012
307
124
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris
  • Prison Architect
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Victoria 2
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
The map is not a territory indeed. IRL 23rd century most likely won't be the one pictured in the game. But still it's a map of 23rd century made by 21st century game studio, even if the map is inaccurate, it's neither a map of 15th century China, nor a 21st centure Sweden.

The laws of economics don't really change, though. The only thing that has been changing is our understanding of how economics work. A society where slavery works without collapsing is a society that has very few machines, because it does not want for hands.

That doesn't seems plausible as we are getting autopiloted cars right now and multiple corporations are working on it. Moores law keeps working and so on. Also in Stellaris there is a new cycle of automatization with robots so it definetely hadn't hit the wall yet.

Stellaris's view is about as dated as the idea of a technological singularity. That said, I never said Stellaris's '80s and '90s science fiction tropes were bad. I said that robotic work is not necessarily better than manual work. Something that is, of course, reflected in Stellaris by having slave economies be able to keep up with automated and robotic/machine economies without falling too far behind.

Yeah, and my thesis is if you can get "enough" minerals with your pickaxe slaves than you are not ready to be a space-empire

Clearly you need more men with pickaxes, then.

Basicaly, that current system seems realistic enough.

Slave economies shouldn't have so much money. Either have actual money in the game, and use energy as energy, or make slave economies energy poor but mineral/food rich.

It's not something arbitrary and unexplainable. And that it makes more sense for future setting than the alternatives which comes to mind.

It is entirely arbitrary and inexplicable, though. Slave economies outproduce everything except for a well developed machine economy after a long period of time, and with a little bit of foresight (certainly, much less than is required for a non-slave economy) can become total autarkies requiring no trade whatsoever because they produce everything they need, or enough energy/minerals/food/CGs to get everything they need by purchasing it on the market. If this were, in fact, realistic, then it would stand to reason that the most successful and richest countries in the world have some sort of slave labor system going on that is comparable to feudal Europe or the Roman Empire. Since this isn't the case, it's really just a bit unbalanced in favor of slave economies.

Making them fundamentally different from non-slave economies, by having special buildings that give them unique jobs, requiring different resources to maintain jobs/pops (slave economies may require minerals/food instead of energy, like how robot populations require energy instead of food), or making slave populations unable to produce energy, would help push it in the direction of having a meaningful difference rather than existing solely as "free production bonus" and being a no-brainer for min-max strats.
 

Cat_Fuzz

General
May 10, 2016
1.775
2.381
What shortage? It's not like my slaves get any goods. It just takes longer to grow pops to fill those artisan jobs when every other new pop is a slave. But I save in pop upkeep, much more I think. Furthermore, that slave can become a miner to feed minerals to other artisans, or clerk to increase trade value and amenities in an ecumenopolis. Amenities increase stability, which gives production and trade bonus. Trade can directly become consumer goods too.

I have much less problems with consumer goods when I am a slaver than otherwise.

Also, if you are struggling for consumer goods (or any resource) why not buy on the market, and sell your surplus.
 

BlackUmbrellas

Field Marshal
33 Badges
Nov 22, 2016
9.311
3.678
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Island Bound
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
That doesn't seems plausible as we are getting autopiloted cars right now and multiple corporations are working on it. Moores law keeps working and so on. Also in Stellaris there is a new cycle of automatization with robots so it definetely hadn't hit the wall yet.
I think its helpful to look at IRL humans as the "exception" rather than the rule when it comes to a civilization's development within Stellaris- IRL technological and societal development typically doesn't adhere to space opera tropes and vice-versa.

IRL humanity would probably count as a Mechanist or Rogue Servitor civilization if we extrapolated to 2200; presumably our level of robotics/automation development is "unusual" within Stellaris-verse.
 

PirateJack

Lt. General
69 Badges
Jun 1, 2009
1.388
630
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Prison Architect
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 2
The problem with own-species slavery is that the current job system doesn't allow for slaves to promote, so if they just carried over the caste system you'd run into the problem of either nobody promoting (not good) or having Egalitarian slaves promoting out of slavery (also not good for Authoritarian empires).

The 40% mark allows for most of your working class to be slaves while still allowing the non-enslaved part to promote into higher stratum jobs. It's not an ideal solution, but this is kind of a huge hurdle for the new job system to handle.
 

Delthor

Captain
21 Badges
Aug 15, 2017
310
15
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Magicka
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
I can only imagine how mindbogglingly bad throwing a civic point away on making 40% of your population nearly useless is

Worker level jobs form the backbone of your economy. You should be able to have 40% of your population in worker tier jobs pretty easily. Remember that slaves can also be clerks, which can produce trade value that can be converted partly to consumer goods. They can also be entertainers, I think, though it might depend on slavery type.

Also, remember that slaves have several buffs to their production and se less consumer goods. You may have less flexibility in your economy, but there are advantages that balance that out.
 

Archael90

Field Marshal
18 Badges
Nov 30, 2017
3.160
3.273
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Majesty 2
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
When you are talking about slaves and creativity, im imaging the sims, and slave-artists in basement (someone remember?) forcing to makes paintings all day long. Also, slaves doesnt means stupid, but strong, or uncreative. Slaves means slaves, they can be masters of arts, that are working like a slave, without payment. And also in stellaris, slaves CAN have "intelligent" trait without being "strong", dont they? And what that means, that they are less competent than "stupid", and "strong" but free pops?