Artillery

[blue emu]

I don't get your logic here, please clarify.

I've always thought that when my division in this province and the enemy division in the next province are sitting opposed to eachother, they are both in the edges of their provinces, with a no-mans-land of 1-5km in between them. Perfectly possible to bombard the enemy front line without attacking, =attempting to push the enemy division out of the province he controls. It doesn't mean that the provinces need to be small enough for artillery in the next province to cover it from North to South.

This might work for situations where one of our provinces borders one hostile province... but what about more complex situations (which are quite common in actual play)?

Suppose an enemy province is adjacent to three of our provinces. Supposedly, the enemy forces are deployed in three groups, one facing each hostile province-border. Should EACH one of our stacks (in three seperate provinces) all be allowed to ART-bombard the entire enemy front-line force (not including reserves), even though two-thirds of them are several dozen (or a hundred) km away, facing a different province-border?

 

[vertinox]

You can add arty and rocket brigades into your divisions (shows on screenshot in a prior dev diary) so they are in, but you won't be giving them direct commands.

 

[unmerged(52476)]

This might work for situations where one of our provinces borders one hostile province... but what about more complex situations (which are quite common in actual play)?

Suppose an enemy province is adjacent to three of our provinces. Supposedly, the enemy forces are deployed in three groups, one facing each hostile province-border. Should EACH one of our stacks (in three seperate provinces) all be allowed to ART-bombard the entire enemy front-line force (not including reserves), even though two-thirds of them are several dozen (or a hundred) km away, facing a different province-border?

True.

On the other hand, you might argue that (in HoI2) a division is able to attack with full efficiency any bordering provinces whithin the minute it starts moving, and therefore should also be able to do the same thing with its artillery.

I would like to see artillery better modeled in the game, but still very abstract. After all, we talk about combat on divisional or corps level. One possible effect could be that divisions with an artillery brigade inflict more damage while simultaneously taking less damage in the first hour of an attack, or something like this.

 

[Tyson_48]

I think the best proposal was if they would use the battle-phase system like used in crusader kings.

So before the direct battle started there should be a phase of artillery bombardement first and perhaps artillery equipped armies could slow down the movement of the attackers...

 

[vertinox]

I think the best proposal was if they would use the battle-phase system like used in crusader kings.

So before the direct battle started there should be a phase of artillery bombardement first and perhaps artillery equipped armies could slow down the movement of the attackers...

Maybe the phases could be based on doctrine since Germans perfected attacking at the same time as they are bombarding in order to surprise the enemy and cut off reinforcements and supplies.

"Softening up" was learned in WWI to usually notify the enemy of when and where the attack was going to happen.

 

[aaaaburnHOI]

This is a strategic game. I cannot think of a single time that Artillery was used on anything but tactical levels of battle. It seems that you can develop a infantry division made up of 4 artillery Battalions/regiments/brigades in HOI3. That is as close to an artillery mission as your going to get. Besides artillery ,in general, does not have the strategic range of province to province.

 

[7thGalaxy]

I agree, I'm happy to just let the arty give its bonuses to the corps rather than worrying about how it did that exactly. On the other hand, I do think there needs to be more combat mechanisms rather than just the all out attack & defend - I don't think that Hoi2 gives a very good representation of the daily grind of combat, and daily loss of troops through more than just weather attrition, but low level tactical combat attrition.

 

[Radu]

Since this is a grand-strategy game, the only strategic artillery relevant would strategic nuclear missiles. Anything else should be automated and abstracted via the ground combat resolution mechanism.

 

[TheLand]

This is a strategic game. I cannot think of a single time that Artillery was used on anything but tactical levels of battle....

Every major operation of World War I and very many of World War II involved an operational concentration of artillery.

 

[Radu]

Every major operation of World War I and very many of World War II involved an operational concentration of artillery.

Operational...perfectly chosen word.

 

[aaaaburnHOI]

Every major operation of World War I and very many of World War II involved an operational concentration of artillery.

Operational is not Strategic. Operational=tactical. You have divisional artillery, corps level artillery, and army level artillery. That is mainly about who commands it implementation. A well timed pre-operational artillery bombardment is still not strategic use of artillery. Strategic use weapons affect grand theaters. Such as strategic missiles. Nuclear tipped strategic missiles eliminate whole cities and whole battlefields. Then they have tactical nukes for... tactical targets.

I like artillery too... Firepower of a division is currently increased by artillery, that represented by a "soft" "hard" attack? Pre-battle artillery bombardments are a helpful thing to soften up your enemy. A divisional bombardment mission might be interesting. Knocks down opposing efficiency or something. I also would like to see feints and recon missions.

 

[aaaaburnHOI]

On the other hand, I do think there needs to be more combat mechanisms rather than just the all out attack & defend.

Yeah. Feints and recon missions would be a nice addition. HOI completely ignores smoke screens too. Smoke is not a strategic mission, but would make things more realistic. Hide troop strength or something.

 

[TheLand]

Operational=tactical.

No, the operational level is the level between "strategy" and "tactics".

In HOI we allocate division to corps and maouvre the corps around the battlefield. That, really, is the operaional level.

The allocation of artillery obviously occurs at all three levels, and HOI3 should model it at strategic level and operational level.

 

[Khevenhuller]

Of course it depends on the level. Field Artillery, held at Brigade/Division level had different roles and responsibilities from the heavier stuff held at army and corps level.

It is also worth remembering that artillery was a General's most direct way of influencing a battlefield quickly and directly.

HoI2 only had one development tree for all guns but ideally you would want at least two: one for field guns and lighter howitzers and the other for heavier guns.

K

 

[Alex_brunius]

HoI2 only had one development tree for all guns but ideally you would want at least two: one for field guns and lighter howitzers and the other for heavier guns.

Now with separate upgrade parts I can think of more upgrade routes.

Light guns, Heavy guns, Self propelled guns and Mortars.

This is if you don't include the various Rocket versions too.

 

[unmerged(29152)]

I think their should be a new order type for Divisions with artillery brigades.

A bombard order similar (replacing) to Support attack. ( How can you support the invasion of another province without moving, HOI2 magic?)
Perhaps this bombard order could have two or three province range. ( tech)

Perhaps this would consume more supplies.
The would cause a rate of attrition, Str and Org on the targetted Province.

I also agree that Front line units should suffer a small rate of attrition even when static because they are dug-in close enough to shoot each other.

I think that Combat should last for as long as it takes for Retreating Division to exit the province. I also think that the combat bar should represent territory gained within a province. When you attack the bar is at the far left, as you advance the green moves to the right.
Armor - If ten tank divisions attacked one infantry Division they would annilihate it. Zero Str, Zer Org, casulties representing Province level encirclement and surrender.
Retreating Divisions would lose STR and ORG more slowly, i.e. The defeated Divisions Org would not be wiped to zero. I do not think that their were too many all out routs in WWII. Perhaps if a Division lost 20 battles their org would slowly become zero.

I think that Partizan Divisions should spawn in un-defended provinces with dissent. These partizans should not be able to move. They should continue to spawn Divisions until they reach a provinces supply limit. They should have very high defensive values so they a proverbial bastard to dislodge.

You could have a vietnam scenario

 

[aaaaburnHOI]

No, the operational level is the level between "strategy" and "tactics". In HOI we allocate division to corps and maouvre the corps around the battlefield. That, really, is the operaional level.
The allocation of artillery obviously occurs at all three levels, and HOI3 should model it at strategic level and operational level.

Once again- Operational level is not the strategic level. This is a strategic game. We use divisional level in HOI to represent the teeth of a fighting unit/corps/army/whatever. Operational or corps artillery is not represented in the game. Your right, tactical does not = operational. Since operational forces are barely represented (being changed in HOI3) thats as close as your gonna get... until HOI3

According to the Department of Defense- Operational: The level of war at which campaigns and major operations are planned, conducted, and sustained to accomplish strategic objectives within theaters or areas of operations. Activities at this level link tactics and strategy by establishing operational objectives needed to accomplish the strategic objectives, sequencing events to achieve the operational objectives, initiating actions, and applying resources to bring about and sustain these events. These activities imply a broader dimension of time or space than do tactics; they ensure the logistic and administrative support of tactical forces, and provide the means by which tactical successes are exploited to achieve strategic objectives.

 

[aaaaburnHOI]

Of course it depends on the level. Field Artillery, held at Brigade/Division level had different roles and responsibilities from the heavier stuff held at army and corps level.
It is also worth remembering that artillery was a General's most direct way of influencing a battlefield quickly and directly.
HoI2 only had one development tree for all guns but ideally you would want at least two: one for field guns and lighter howitzers and the other for heavier guns.
K

Yeah. Im real excited about the new division creation system. having AT, ART, and AA or whatever you want in one division and its modable.

 

[unmerged(44315)]

I've thought about the best way to have artillery add into strategic battles. A good (low maintenance) method that I thought about was attaching Artillery to HQ units. Any artillery "brigade" attached to an HQ unit would have a chance to add it's firepower to a battle presently occuring within its organization.

There would have to be modifiers to this chance, of course.

Some that I've thought of:

Level: Corps level would have a better chance than Theater level.

Distance: Closer HQs have a better chance to help than farther ones.

Offensives would have a better chance to get arty support than defensive. (Maybe only corps level arty could be used in a defensive manner?)

Of course, there are more situations.

 

[TheLand]

Since operational forces are barely represented (being changed in HOI3) thats as close as your gonna get... until HOI3

HOI2 warfare involved ordering army- and corps-sized units across the battlefield. How is this not an operational level of command?