Artillery stats from Johan's Netherlands game on twitter

[jamesd]

for 1- Partly covered by 2. (see below)
for -2. Guns less than 105mm inc. Mortars and Mines etc are assumed in HOI series as part of Infantry equipment, this means infantry includes- small arms, mines, mortars and infantry guns i.e. those 75mm guns etc.
for 3- HOI has not included the "support staffs" ever in their divisional model, so this division will probably be 18-20k in strength but their "bayonet" strength is 11k which is shown.
for 4- A player always goes a-historical.

We've had the discussion about small guns on another thread and no I do not believe they are included in infantry equipment. Someone quoted a dev mentioning that small bore weapons were included in infantry equipment, suggesting that 37mm, 47mm, 60mm etc infantry guns are infantry equipment as they are small bore and essentially provide the same sort of close support as mortars, but once we get to 75mm and above, they are full size artillery pieces.

In HOI3 manpower levels for brigades varied by size, with militia requiring 2 manpower and infantry 3.33 manpower while both had front line strengths of 3000 men. I rationalised each manpower point as being equal to 1500 men, with all the men in the militia unit being in front line units while the infantry brigade with 5000 men had 2000 manning artillery and providing logistic support etc. I'm hoping that for HOI4 the manpower figures for divisions are just the total manpower seeing that manpower doesn't actually contribute to combat stats (they're just the sum of the equipment). If manpower for command and logistics troops that are integral to the proper functioning of a division are not accounted for, then manpower losses when divisions are surrounded will be significantly understated.

I usually stick relatively historical when producing units and intend to do so again with HOI4, so you can't say a player always opts for non-historical options.

 

[DeveronMagi]

I can't remember how it is in the Democratic Dutch. Maybe it got inverted after the communist coup?



Yeah. When I first saw it I looked it up because it sounds very Italian. Turns out it's a fantasy name (and one that sounds very Italian ).

yeah the flag got turned up side down after the coup. i understand why they would do it like this...but it is a little bit confusing if you every have dutch communists fight yoguslavia.

 

[Mengo78]

yeah the flag got turned up side down after the coup. i understand why they would do it like this...but it is a little bit confusing if you every have dutch communists fight yoguslavia.

Ah, how philosophical: Like Karl Marx materialism turns Hegels idea's up side down, Johan turns the flag up side down. I can dig that.

 

[vicerory]

Two small details:
1) The Dutch flag is upsidedown!
2) Jacometti is a very uncommon dutch name, it's more Latin.

I can't remember how it is in the Democratic Dutch. Maybe it got inverted after the communist coup?



Yeah. When I first saw it I looked it up because it sounds very Italian. Turns out it's a fantasy name (and one that sounds very Italian ).

Jacometti is most definitely NOT a fantasy name. In fact, it's the name of a Dutch war hero. He was a former colonial officer (major) who was put in charge of an infantry battalion on the eve of WWII, and took part in the battle of the Grebbeberg. He was killed leading a counter-attack against the German lines.

In Rhenen, a village on the slopes of the Grebbeberg, there is a street named after Majoor Jacometti (my grandparents used to live there).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Grebbeberg (ctrl+f 'Jacometti')

http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?page=het-sneuvelen-van-majoor-j-h-a-jacometti-commandant-van-ii-8-r-i-op-12-mei-1940 (dutch account)

 

[Admiral Fisker]

Why are only 950 weapons needed for a division consisting of 11,000 men?

 

[Victor Cortez]

Jacometti is most definitely NOT a fantasy name. In fact, it's the name of a Dutch war hero. He was a former colonial officer (major) who was put in charge of an infantry battalion on the eve of WWII, and took part in the battle of the Grebbeberg. He was killed leading a counter-attack against the German lines.

In Rhenen, a village on the slopes of the Grebbeberg, there is a street named after Majoor Jacometti (my grandparents used to live there).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Grebbeberg (ctrl+f 'Jacometti')

http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?page=het-sneuvelen-van-majoor-j-h-a-jacometti-commandant-van-ii-8-r-i-op-12-mei-1940 (dutch account)

Thanks for the info! I must definitely improve my googling skills!

 

[GsusNSV]

Why are only 950 weapons needed for a division consisting of 11,000 men?

support and artillery need manpower too, but no or almost none infantery equipment.
infantery = 1k manpower - 100 inf equip.
support artillery = 300 manpower - 0 inf equip.
engineer = 300 manpower - 10 inf equip.
recon = 500 manpower - 40 inf equip.

Also 1 infantery equipmment is considered all stuff needed for 10 men. So the division has enough weapon for 9500 men.

 

[Denkt]

Artillery do look very powerful but I guess they have some big weakness not to make them to strong.

 

[FOARP]

Historically artillery was the main cause of casualties in the war. Here's the stats for British battle casualties:


Mortar, grenade, bomb, shell ...........75%
Bullet, AT mine................................10%
mine & booby trap...........................10%
Blast and crush.................................2%
Chemical..........................................2%
other................................................1%

from J Ellis WWII Databook table 57 p257.

Having a high soft-attack statistic for artillery, even higher than infantry units, only makes sense. There just has to be other statistics that make up for this - HOI3 used frontage statistics (infantry had frontage, artillery was a support unit and so didn't), I'm not sure what HOI4 uses but you can be sure there's something.

Thanks for the screen Axe.
So if I get this right, all else equal, an Inf div without arty will be crushed by one with arty, no discussion.

And historically that's exactly what happened unless there was a heavy advantage in numbers - think the Battle of the Imjin for example.

Axe99,

thanks for the screen shot, the stats look intriguing. It seems the Art soft attack is quite different to the Inf, which blows away my previous assumptions in other threads, worrying about it.

I really wouldn't worry - these are Beta stats, and we have no idea how the game really is going to work.

 

[Axe99]

Artillery do look very powerful but I guess they have some big weakness not to make them to strong.

The big, obvious weakness would be their actual, historical weakness (another case where abstracted realistic mechanics make for better gameplay), in that divisions with artillery should take up more of the supply cap, and they should be fairly expensive production-wise in terms of resupply (so in the absence of generic supplies/ammo, they should chew through a lot of artillery equipment in battle, even if they're not taking a lot of casualties).

 

[Admiral Fisker]

Also 1 infantery equipmment is considered all stuff needed for 10 men.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Denkt]

Mountaineers use 140 equipment per battalion so it is just for balance.

 

[Axe99]

Mountaineers use 140 equipment per battalion so it is just for balance.

It might also represent a difference in the amount of infantry armament they have - mountaineers tend to have a bit less in the way of armament, so might need less infantry equipment per person? Strengthens the case for a 'heavy infantry' battalion with higher infantry equipment requirements as well.

Edit: Or it might not, given it's doing the complete opposite - thanks to panzerzombie for pointing that out, apologies for the confusion!

 

[panzerzombie]

It might also represent a difference in the amount of infantry armament they have - mountaineers tend to have a bit less in the way of armament, so might need less infantry equipment per person? Strengthens the case for a 'heavy infantry' battalion with higher infantry equipment requirements as well.

Erm....are you sure you got that right ? I don´t remember ( but assume yes) that mountaineers required the same manpower as regular infantry per battalion but they require therefor MORE per man, not less.

 

[Axe99]

Erm....are you sure you got that right ? I don´t remember ( but assume yes) that mountaineers required the same manpower as regular infantry per battalion but they require therefor MORE per man, not less.

Whoops, sorry, right you are. Not sure where my head was at, thanks for sorting that out. Maybe represents the cost of producing equipment more tailored to mountainous situations?

 

[Red_warning]

Four points:
1. Artillery battalions have 36 guns or 3 battalions worth for most armies throughout the period, meaning some big compromises in trying to create historical templates.
2. The artillery is not powerful enough. With that many guns, many more than most divisions had, and no distinctions from light through to siege guns, the artillery soft attack should dwarf the infantry soft attack, but it barely exceeds it.
3. Manpower is way off. A division with 9 infantry battalions, engineers, recon and 11 battalion equivalents of artillery should be at the very least 15,000 men, if not more.
4. Historically the Netherlands only managed to field less than half that number of guns per division when including the guns held at corps level, so there's been some alternate history explored. An extra 80 artillery pieces probably more than makes up for the missing 24 x 47mm AT guns.

Doesn't the constitution of battalions, regiments, brigades etc vary significantly between nations?

 

[calebmarkle]

Whoops, sorry, right you are. Not sure where my head was at, thanks for sorting that out. Maybe represents the cost of producing equipment more tailored to mountainous situations?

Infantry equipment isn't just the rifle its everything a guy will need as an infantryman. So a mountaineer will need his rifle, and uniform just like regular troops, but will also need climbing spikes, rope or whatever he needs for mountain combat. I'm just realizing how little I know about mountain combat

 

[Joe32320]

Do remember soft attack is not only the killing power of a unit in terms of casualties, but also deals damage to organisation too, which is how HOI determines who wins a battle etc, given this is an abstracted stat, and given gameplay considerations, its entirely possible that Arty being "underpowered" in raw stats doesn't effect its effectiveness in gameplay. For one, if its like HOI3 Arty wont't have any combat width, so you can pack Arty into units and increase the combat power of units you can actually get into combat.

 

[jamesd]

Doesn't the constitution of battalions, regiments, brigades etc vary significantly between nations?

They can, but for most nations 12 gun artillery battalions were the norm. The only major power that didn't use 12 gun battalions was Britain. Their artillery units varied in size from 12 to 24 guns depending on size and manpower required to service them. Field guns were supposed to be 24 guns but, especially earlier in the war, were sometimes as small as 12 guns. Their medium units were 16 guns and the heavies 12. Their lightest units, Indian mountain artillery regiments, were 16 guns, but required significantly more men to man them.

Again, for most nations, 9 infantry battalions was the norm in an infantry division with 3-4 rifle companies and a support company in each, but usually being around 800-900 men regardless of differences in internal structure.