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pnt

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The air updates in BBA are very promising, but there is a part of land combat that could be made much more realistic and impactful with only moderate changes to the game - namely artillery. I currently have a lot of things requiring my attention irl, so am not planning to do a lot of detailed follow-up posts, but I wanted to make a few suggestions. The current system is a little limited in three ways.

1. Organization (division vs corps level)
2. Stratification (both light and heavy artillery has its uses)
3. Prime movers

For HOI, which includes a fairly extensive economic model, the last point is by far most important and impactful, so let me just mention the first two more briefly.

Historically, artillery was the primary killer of infantry in both world wars, and remains so today in large-scale operations. And in contrast to common myths, German tank doctrine during WW2 did, in particular, not focus on tank vs tank or tank vs infantry combat, but the goal of the armor was to quickly take out enemy artillery following a breakthrough. Thus, all armies deployed significant artillery assets, and the idea of having divisions without artillery or with only a support company does not adequately reflect the historic balance between infantry and artillery.

1. However, the way artillery was distributed varied significantly. The USSR deployed only moderate quantities of relatively light (122 mm) artillery at the division level - and instead had the bulk of its artillery in independent formations at corps and army level. This made it possible to easily mass artillery where it was needed, with the only limitation being logistics in-between the railway stations and the units in question. Germany, on the other hand, assigned almost all its artillery to divisions, and even then tended to earmark an abteilung of light (105 mm) artillery to each regiment. This very dispersed use of artillery enabled a quick tactical response, but made it very difficult to reach sufficient quantities to achieve a breakthrough against an opponent of comparable strength, which greatly diminished the ability of the German army to carry out offensive operations from 1943 and onwards. The allies, and in particular the US, were due to their superior logistics able to deploy significant artillery resources at division level (which, in combination with very effective forward observer teams, was extremely responsive), but also had large amounts of corps-level artillery that could be assigned as required. Since HOI4 supports formations above division level, incorporating the a balance between tactical responsiveness and strategic concentration should be relatively straightforward.

2. In general, allied and German artillery came in three guises: light (105 mm or 25-pdr), medium ("light" 150-155 mm or 4.5-in such as), and heavy (155 mm and above, including the super heavy railway guns that were recently added to the game). Light artillery was mostly used at division level, although the US and German divisions also had a battalion of "light" 150-155 mm (M1 & s.FH18) howitzers. Heavy artillery was only attached to high-level formations - although these often also had lots of medium artillery. The soviets opted for an in-between level with their 122 mm divisional piece, but two or three levels would already be a major improvement over the current single type system.

3. As noted above, the potentially greatest impact would be to include the impact of different choices of prime movers. Currently, infantry divisions have horse-drawn artillery, while motorized have motorized artillery - but this is a great simplification both in terms of capabilities and economy. Motorized prime movers not only allow fro quick re-deployment to avoid counter-battery fire, and significantly reduce personnel and supply use (transporting artillery and its ammunition requires a lot of horses), but also greatly reduces artillery losses in retreat. "Light" artillery can be towed by regular 2-ton trucks (or simple tracked vehicles like the RSO). Heavier pieces do, however, require dedicated prime movers. The high-quality wheeled prime movers deployed by the allies proved very cost-effective and was a key ingredient in the very good battlefield performance exhibited by western armies. The Germans, on the other hand, had a good design in the Opel (a GM brand) Blitz light truck, but suffered from poor quality heavy trucks. Thus, before WW2 it was decided to develop a line of very expensive half-tracks for medium and heavy artillery. Each of these was not only very fuel-inefficient, but also cost about half as much as a tank. And as a consequence of this decision, a larger fraction of German industrial production was assigned to heavy prime movers than actual tanks. And since these unarmored vehicles were extremely vulnerable to air attack, they were destroyed by the allies in large numbers, forcing the Germans to revert to relying almost exclusively on horses in the later stages of the war. Incidentally, this also shows the inflexibility of the German industrial program, since the Czech Tatra company made excellent 6x6 heavy trucks that could have been used instead. The Tatra 111 from 1943 was, for instance, one of the best trucks of the war and was later used within the Soviet block for a very long time with great success. But despite their potential these powerful cross-country trucks were only built in small quantities during the war, and most chassis were used for armored cars (including the Puma).

Introducing stratified artillery that could be organized for tactical or strategic impact, in combination with the need for prime movers (which were very vulnerable to strafing by fighters on air superiority missions) should make it possible to recreate a much more historically accurate battlefield model with only limited changes to the current game mechanics. And it would also show why the Soviets were so utterly reliant on lend-lease for battlefield success, since their domestically produced trucks were extremely unreliable. Even the iconic Katyushas were mounted exclusively on Studebaker US6 trucks when these became available through lend-lease. But without this massive allied support, Soviet logistics would never have been able to support the large-scale (WW1-style) artillery use that came to dominate the war on the eastern front from 1943 onwards (and remains the most important part of Soviet doctrine to this day). Even Stalin admitted this during the Tehran conference (although the wikipedia entry is not well translated, since mashina in Russian most commonly refers to a motor vehicle rather than the abstract idea of a "machine.")
 
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Cavalry

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Yeah, artillery in HOI4 leave an empty place. Rail gun looks better, but expensive for small country. And how about buiding fixed arty redoubt like Sevastopol.

And should be a different between having huge arty ammo and not. I think Arty can fire all the time, but have bigger effect when you give them huge number of ammo.
 
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Kanitatlan

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I started a thread on artillery some time back discussing the issues around artillery. This raised broader issues of how artillery was used and what I considered to be the key issues which are more related to the way it is currently treated too much like a frontline battalion rather than a support element.

As an aside, I would disagree with your calibre assignments for light medium and heavy. Different armies tended to use different descriptions but the reality is the following categories
  • Light: not everyone used these, I consider light to be the 75mm category
  • Medium: I would treat this as the main line of artillery used by each army. The calibres ranged from 25pdr (UK) through 105mm (Germany, USA) to 122mm (Soviets). These guns were really just defined by being guns that could be towed in combat form by a prime mover and required minimal setup to fire.
  • Heavy: Typically around 150mm, guns providing heavier fire but commonly required a bit more setup to use. Normally present in regular divisional equipment
  • Other: heavier and longer range calibres used in some divisions and independent artillery regiments. Not everybody bothered. Usually deployed at Corps or Army level
My old thread says a lot more about how I think artillery should be changed
 
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pnt

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I really don't have time to go into long discussions right now - sorry about that!

Let me just make a comment on calibers, since there are many misconceptions out there. Many nations used small infantry guns or large mortars at the regimental level - but these are considered infantry equipment in HOI4.

While one could call the next tier, which could use a 2-3 ton truck as prime mover "divisional" rather than "light" artillery, it misses the fact that the US and Germany infantry divisions had three battalions of 105 mm guns and one of 150-155 mm ones - which also were divisional artillery.

Corps and army artillery usually consisted of even larger pieces. For instance, The 122 mm A-19 was an 8 ton gun (including limber), with a much longer range than the divisional 122 mm M-30, which only weighed 3 tons. And there was a 152 mm version (the ML-20) sharing the carriage of the A-19, just as the 152 mm D-1 used the carriage of the M-30. And there were even bigger 152 mm guns, such as the 20 ton Br.2.

But lighter guns were also used at corps and army level. This is why I think that having a light category that can be towed by a truck and a medium category that requires a dedicated prime mover is more practical - and reserve the "heavy" category for pieces like the 21 cm Mrs 18, which was disassembled before transport. However, my point above was that even two categories would make it much easier to have a realistic artillery model in the game, and tie it into the very considerable industrial effort required for motorization - and in particular construction of heavy prime movers. If you prefer a different nomenclature, I don't have a strong opinion about it as such. :)
 
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DukofDeth

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It would be nice to be able to make pure artillery units to be directly attached to the army and army group leaders. The trouble would be in modeling where such assets were at any given time but that could be worked abstractly into the time to set up a battle-plan.
 
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DukofDeth

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Furthermore this would be a better way to encourage us to actually use battleplans more fully than their present punishments for resorting to micro.
 
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The Colonel

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This is really interesting, but I have to admit I can't see how it could be properly implemented in-game. If the idea is to make corps-level artillery formations work similarly to railguns (but presumably not rail-limited), it seems they'd have to be much weaker to not make railguns obsolete (even if that would be reasonable as the war goes on, I don't see PDX doing it...), and if not then it doesn't seem like there'd be much point to actually using them. Granted, one of the things with railguns is their effects aren't supposed to stack, which is the opposite of the force concentration stuff talked about here. However, the way they work (debuffing enemies rather than buffing your own units) is also a bit weird and not sure if it's the way you'd imagine this working.
 
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pnt

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One would have to think about the details of the implementation - but perhaps the first step is to try to make sure that the player is faced with somewhat historic choices?

Historically, artillery was a killer, so all countries deployed as much as they could afford (it was expensive) and supply (no point in having barrels without ammo, as was pointed out above). But the question of whether it was preferable to go for tactical responsiveness (and probably greater damage potential overall), or concentration for breakthroughs was a strategic decision. Or in the case of the allies, could one build up a logistic system that could support both (which also was quite costly and required fuel). In part this choice could be linked to doctrines (the current options for superior firepower seem to be moving in this direction, but the details are not very historical, and the Soviet doctrine was more about artillery than massed tank or mass infantry assaults).

Furthermore, motorization of artillery also in infantry units made it significantly more effective - but it came at a high cost in terms of production and fuel (although demanding less supplies and manpower).

One would indeed have to think how to best implement corpse level artillery. DukeofDeath's idea to integrate it with battle plans sounds great - also because it would mean that the AI could use it - but it would hinge on that the AI used the supply system wisely, and allocated support based on both priority and logistics. I am sure one could keep it slightly different in nature than the rail mounter guns, though. :)
 
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Ilyasviel

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The only thing I really want for artillery is for it to stop taking width. It doesn't make any sense since they weren't frontline units. They would be better limited by supply and production than by width. It was like that in hoi3, they fought exclusively from the backline.
 
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Corpse Fool

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It would be nice to be able to make pure artillery units to be directly attached to the army and army group leaders. The trouble would be in modeling where such assets were at any given time but that could be worked abstractly into the time to set up a battle-plan.
With the bug that fat width units not being selected as targets by things smaller than half their size as long as you do present another valid target, this idea kinda does work. Of course, the max size being 75w means the enemy using 37.5w or larger units means they are immune to these shenanigans, and CAS will also ignore it. It also generally works best with SF doctrine, to get enough org on the support companies to get an amount of org on the template that you can actually use.
 

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The lack of any sort of corps mechanic is tricky.

Currently, battalions represent front-line groups and regiment-level organization.

Support companies represent organizational, non-frontline elements (hospital, maintenance) as well as support units (combat engineers, anti-tank guns, etc.). But it's fairly abstracted.

To better represent artillery organization, perhaps a "third" layer of divisional-level attachments could work.

Battalion (1), Support (2), and..."Attached (?)" (3) - which would allow the player to designate extra artillery - and different types - to a division. Or perhaps a group of divisions.

This system would also be easily repurposed to represent the addition of schwere Panzerabteilung and other brigade-level attachments that is more fluid than swapping out division templates that have a battalion of armor thrown in.

It would have the added benefit of avoiding the creation of a corps-level OOB system.
 
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Cavalry

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If the idea is to make corps-level artillery formations work similarly to railguns (but presumably not rail-limited), it seems they'd have to be much weaker to not make railguns obsolete (even if that would be reasonable as the war goes on, I don't see PDX doing it...), and if not then it doesn't seem like there'd be much point to actually using them.
Artillery can be like CAS: give damage (everyone love to see how many his big guns kill), and give bonus, and have few direct casualties and can be captured. The CAS use a big fuel when it attacks, but fuel can be free for some country. Arty can use fuel too if supply is not used, not 100% correct but better than free ammo from heaven.

Because there is no longer big arty in the line divisions, so the arty need to cover that and doesn't need to compete with rail gun. Rail gun is of course much more expensive, and give lower bonus. They are the extra for the rich.
 

pnt

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It would have the added benefit of avoiding the creation of a corps-level OOB system.
You are absolutely right that this would be better to avoid. And indeed, it would make sense for each division to have a dedicated artillery regiment, which then could be filled independently of the support companies or line battalions.

However, since independent artillery units were attached to corps and armies as needed, one could probably simply attach them to generals and field marshals in the current OOB without major changes. Perhaps doctrine and skill would limit how much could be assigned to each?
 
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With the bug that fat width units not being selected as targets by things smaller than half their size as long as you do present another valid target, this idea kinda does work. Of course, the max size being 75w means the enemy using 37.5w or larger units means they are immune to these shenanigans, and CAS will also ignore it. It also generally works best with SF doctrine, to get enough org on the support companies to get an amount of org on the template that you can actually use.
They'll sort out the fat width issue - they're usually quick to pounce on anything that is too exploitable.
 

Kanitatlan

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I covered this more in my previous thread on artillery so I won't repeat that thread here. My personal view is the more significant issue is artillery being treated like a weapon that is primarily designed to inflict casualties which certainly wasn't the case in WW2. Artillery is a support arm and, like air support, should be designed so that its ability to inflict casualties is linked to the combat operations of other sub-units. Designing a system that works around those principals would allow artillery to become a zero width unit. The other aspect of artillery support is that in game it is seen as a unit that adds firepower which simply inflicts casualties. This is a poor representation. In reality we should be limiting the direct casualty effect of artillery and giving defence and breakthrough more prominence.

For example, the role of artillery in attack isn't to kill the defenders but to suppress them so that the direct fire attackers (front line battalions) take fewer casualties in completing the attack. If you browse through the history of WW2 you can find extreme examples where artillery prep has been so thorough that the follow up ground attack simply swept up all the defenders with minimal resistance. Typical defender losses to the artillery in such cases are 5-10%.

Focusing on defence/breakthrough also allows highlighting the real difference between light/medium/heavy artillery which is increasing breakthrough effects for the heavier artillery rather than better ability to inflict casualties.
 
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My personal view is the more significant issue is artillery being treated like a weapon that is primarily designed to inflict casualties
I'd say that through the mechanics, it is more designed to deal damage, damage being split into strength and org. In a pretty twisted way, its the targets choice of its org to HP (and hp to manpower) ratio that dictates how many casualties it suffers.
the role of artillery in attack isn't to kill the defenders but to suppress them
My rhetorical question is through what mechanic is the artillery able to suppress. I'd imagine that if a soldier were to not leave their position to take cover, and exposed themselves to more concussion and shrapnel than 9/10 doctors suggest, they'd become casualties. Is the problem that the artillery is tearing apart the infantry, or that the infantry aren't taking defensive measures against incoming artillery?

I'd say the stronger argument is with the former, autoloaders, stabilizers, and extra ammo offer breakthrough/defense bonuses rather than attacks, and I've also argued more generally that for certain units, at least some part of their offensive stats have been converted into defensive ones in what could possibly described as an abstraction of suppression.

But just converting some artillery attack into breakthrough/defense, requires rebalancing other units like infantry and tanks to allow them to carve a niche for themselves.
 
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My personal view is the more significant issue is artillery being treated like a weapon that is primarily designed to inflict casualties which certainly wasn't the case in WW2.

In fairness to the Devs, it is a long-running theme in studying WW2 that combat casualties in land combat were the result of artillery more than any other source. If you agree with this, then it makes sense to make ART a major source of SA.

Now, these studies (such as JBA Bailey's 2004 book) mention that artillery casualty figures include both big guns (represented by ART in the game) and stuff like mortars (represented by support weapons tech that boosts infantry in the game). But together, I see estimates as high as 60% of Soviet combat casualties caused by enemy artillery during the war.
 
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