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Captain Jack

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Now I've been noticing as of late, that artillery, mortars and whatever have been integral to any sort of action at all. Now this isn't an issue, but when the game becomes a pissing match of who can throw the most indirect fire at the other player, so that you sniper their artillery pieces before you even consider moving, well that's just not fun.

Might I suggest some tweaks so that artillery becomes less of a "click this unit to stop the enemy pushing at all" button.

inb4: "just counterbattery"
 

Rojan

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Artillery should be really good at stopping pushes. What tweaks would you want to implement? I win most of my games through pushes and not World War I style trench slugfests.
 

Custard88

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Long aim times and slow RoF is how one would make sure that arty is purely a weapon for blasting fixed positions, and not dropping hellfire on any unit that pokes its head up like it is currently.

We'll see if anything changes in the coming patches.
 

Captain Jack

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Artillery should be really good at stopping pushes. What tweaks would you want to implement? I win most of my games through pushes and not World War I style trench slugfests.
I forgot that WWII had advanced comms and artillery aiming methods to ensure they could hit moving elements in the middle of a push.
I agree with Custard though, aim times certainly need to be longer,
 

Rojan

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I forgot that WWII had advanced comms and artillery aiming methods to ensure they could hit moving elements in the middle of a push.
I agree with Custard though, aim times certainly need to be longer,
Aim in front of where they're walking.

Snarky sarcasm aside, I agree with the aim times issue. Also if you vet some mortar units they turn into literal machine gun destroyers. It is stupid, lower the ROF bonus from artillery with vet.
 

Captain Jack

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Aim in front of where they're walking.

Snarky sarcasm aside, I agree with the aim times issue. Also if you vet some mortar units they turn into literal machine gun destroyers. It is stupid, lower the ROF bonus from artillery with vet.
Realistically artillery would be quite useless against units on an offence, you can't hit a manoeuvring as reliably as you can in SD, which is why Artillery commanders are given pre-sighted targets for defensive barrages. Slower RoF and aim time would reflect this perfectly
 

Rojan

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Realistically artillery would be quite useless against units on an offence, you can't hit a manoeuvring as reliably as you can in SD, which is why Artillery commanders are given pre-sighted targets for defensive barrages. Slower RoF and aim time would reflect this perfectly
That's fine. It sounds like a reasonable change.
 

Vyllis

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Typical SD action:

My squads encounter the enemy in a forest, they only start to fire at each other and...there come the rain from my opponent !

Well since i can't do really anything versus those mortars, i use mine and make it rain on the enemy squad.
The fight was not decided from the infantry on the ground, no, both infantry were pinned from the other player mortars...

If something annoys you: arty it. If something moves: arty it. If someone push: arty him. If someone camp: arty him.
Its not like any deck is out of plentiful options to make it rain on the enemy.
It make you want to use more vehicles and less infantry, poor SD infantry.

Artillery should be used to weaken an area before the attack, destroy obvious strong points, pound fixed defences, barrage areas to deny access (road, etc), counter battery and delay the enemy push if their moving direction/path is obvious to you.

Way longer aim time and maybe slower rof is needed. Or a price rebalance/availability of the artillery.
Wargame like '90/2000 artillery should have no place in such a game.
 
Last edited:

Rojan

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Typical SD action:

My squads encounter the enemy in a forest, they only start to fire at each other and...there come the rain from my opponent !

Well since i can't do really anything versus those mortars, i use mine and make it rain on the enemy squad.
The fight was not decided from the infantry on the ground, no both infantry were pinned from the other player mortars...

If something annoys you: arty it. If something moves: arty it. If someone push: Arty him. If someone camp: Arty him.
Its not like any deck is out of plentiful options to make it rain on the enemy.

Artillery should be used to weaken an area before the attack, destroy obvious strong points, pound fixed defences, barrage areas to deny access (road, etc), counter battery and delay the enemy push if their moving direction/path is obvious to you.

Way longer aim time and maybe slower rof is needed. Or a price rebalance of the artillery.

Price balancing won't change the problems you are encountering. Tone down the aim time and a small tweak to the ROF.
 

Rodeno

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Another option would be to lower the barrage size to maybe 2-3 rounds. At least then it'd force you to remicro the unit, and go through another bout of aim time, possibly giving Fall Back a chance to preserve the bombarded unit. Or you could lower the amount of rounds an arty piece has, enough to where you need to sink points into supply trucks, thereby lowering what you have on field. I'd still keep smoke round counts about where they are now.
 

sdawg

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There are lots of things that could be done, and they would have complicated effects on the game.

1) make it difficult to move/set up artillery. In other words, once an artillery unit is unlimbered, that represents its ammunition being unloaded as well-which would be very difficult to move.
So pick where you want the artillery to be, and assume its there for most of the scenario. This would enhance the value of self-propelled artillery pieces (which can move more easily). To balance that enhancement, those sp guns could have greatly reduced ammunition.
2) Make artillery more difficult to counterbattery fire. Now, we can watch the tracers from AA guns, and the rounds from artillery, leave the ground, and then shoot at that. This is implausible. But if you make counterbattery fire less effective, you make AA guns and artillery pieces more effective, because they are not at as much risk.
3) Longer aim times (as someone mentioned).
4) Less likely to kill, but more (or as likely) to suppress. In other words, the artillery would be used to suppress an enemy infantry unit, which would then require a ground (infantry unit) to be destroyed/caused to surrender. If artillery only fires, it would suppress an infantry unit (causing fewer actual casualties), but that suppression goes away. This would enhance the morale effect of artillery, and create more motivation for combined arms.
5) Make artillery less numerous. You may have the artillery necessary to dominate a small section of the front: but not enough to dominate the entire front.
6) Make artillery less powerful. Specifically, make the sexy, huge artillery (the giant railroad offmap guns, the 203mm guns, the nebelwerfers and calliope's) far far less common. Restrict artillery to the smaller mortars, and, for 'big' artillery, the 105mm guns. This would be more realistic (but less sexy).

All of these would have dramatic impacts on the game-dramatic impacts on the pacing, on the decks, on how casualties are caused, dramatic impact on how aa units are used and how effective they are.

Artillery is not a simple fix.

This thread is also pointing to other issues. Specifically, as has been said many times, WWII was still really an infantry war. Due to all the sexy equipment in SD:N, that is not the case here. There are a lot of vehicles (tanks, at guns, even halftracks with mgs, scout cars), there is a lot of artillery, there are a lot of AA guns, there are a preposterous number of planes. Infantry is really second fiddle to all the metal in the game. This makes for a very dynamic, 'fun', very interactive game. But its not plausible from a historical perspective. I'm beginning to realize that the whole division deck mechanism is simply incompatible with an historical model. If you try to fix artillery, for instance, you are going to cause a lot of problems with AA guns-which will really mess with the air game. And so on.

Steve
 

Custard88

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@sdawg To me honest I find off map artillery the most reasonable of the lot, it's powerful yes, but its call-in delay limits its usefulness against all but the most glacial of attacks. It's much more tailored for blasting the hell out of static positions, which is exactly what artillery should be doing in this game.
 
Last edited:

facmanpob

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Realistically artillery would be quite useless against units on an offence, you can't hit a manoeuvring as reliably as you can in SD, which is why Artillery commanders are given pre-sighted targets for defensive barrages. Slower RoF and aim time would reflect this perfectly
Listen, Mulligan, I don't think I'm getting through to you. You're dropping your damn barrage on our position!
You can't hear me? The reason you can't hear me is because you're firing your mortars on your end, and they're landing here, at our end!
No, the Krauts aren't here! We're here!
Mulligan, your bombs are coming down on our heads! I don't know where the Krauts are. Just lift your goddamned barrage! Over!
 

BadRNG

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From my experience arty spam only happens in big games (mostly 10vs10's) played on cramped maps like Colombelles, as they are prone to stalling with limited space and lots of units. I personally don't think the nerf is necessary, but if anything I would have considered the quantity changes since quality nerf now would have led to slowing down the game pace considerably, as after the planes usability have been heavily reduced, artillery is the most reliable tool in removing the AT guns.
 

Grosnours

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Divide all availability (number of cards) by 2. Problem solved.
The drawbacks are extremely limited, because you only lose the capacity for overkill. You still have enough arty pieces to get the job done, you can even do some saturation, but not everywhere all the time. On top of diminishing the total number of arty pieces used, it will also introduce some variation in the units fielded.

Mind that even dividing by 2 availability will not solve the problem in 10v10. The force multiplier is so strong there that nothing can help short of special rules.
 

Hamakaze

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tbh the change proposed wil only minimize the arty barrages. It'll just take more Recon and practice using the "Fire on Position" command to accurately drop the shells ahead of time
 

Vyllis

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It is not always about how devastating and numerous it can be, it is also about how fast and accurate it comes at you. That why i do support a strong aim time increase, both for gameplay sanity and realism (its WW2 artillery, not satellite data linked system with auto deployable 150mm truck artillery àlà Wargame).

Clicking everywhere to make your units dodge arty/mortar rain is the least of fun things to do. Having any single fights start to quickly go into "my mortar aim best and faster" is not fun.

Enduring a heavy barrage before an enemy push ? Yes.
Getting under mortars fire after a significant fight started ? Yes.
Having my artillery being under counter battery fire ? Yes.
Having to deal with lazy mortars, bombs or fast coming artillery everytime i want to push or move something. I can deal with it of course, but its getting annoying and boring very quickly.

The worse is when you win someone, this time, who really mass spammed like a noob every moves you did and did not hold his ground... its not even fun, thrilling or rewarding...

Never have this problem in 1vs1 matches. If my enemy can keep on bringing in more arty, I've already lost.

There are many things that wont work in 1v1 but are valid in 3v3 up to more. First things being teamwork and decks complementarity.
I do not even know why you posted this. Maybe if you feel a superior 1v1 hero now... nice for you.
 

Raventhefuhrer

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Feb 1, 2009
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I 100% agree, higher skill games are total arty-parties right now with heavy abuse of mortars (especially Ranger mortars) and overuse of MLRS (Meme Launching Rocket Systems) like Nebelwerfer and Xylophone. Artillery aims too fast, kills too easily, resupplies too cheaply, and comes in too great of numbers. It's an enormous problem.