Artillery Fire - what does it do and where is it applied?

[klingonadmiral]

If artillery does base 2 fire damage and infantry does base 1 fire/1 shock damage, then artillery having 1/1 in fire is exactly as good as infantry having 1/1 in fire and 1/1 in shock combined. All pips do is modify base damage. Artillery not having offensive shock bonuses doesn't matter because artillery don't have relevant base shock damage (artillery not having 2 shock defense does matter though due to how artillery add defense to infantry).

Time for some actual math. We assume no general, no crossing penalties. Infantry type is Landsknechten Infantry (0/0/1/1/1/2) - which will actually be the worst type because I can't be bothered to also calculate morale casualties. We will use a dice roll result of 5.

Fire Phase Infantry

casualties = (15 + 5 * 5) * 1 * 0.80 * 1 * 1 * (1.05 / 1.5) * 1 * 1 = 22.4

Fire Phase Artillery

casualties = ((15 + 5 * 6) * 1 * 2 * 1 * 1 * (1.05 / 1.5) * 1 * 1) * 0.50 = 31.5

Shock Phase Infantry

casualties = ( 15 + 5 * 6) * 0.978 * 0.95 * 1 * 1 * (1.05/ 1.5) * 1.03 * 1 = 30.1

Shock Phase Artillery

casualties = 0

-----

Average casualties inflicted by infantry over 2 phases: 26.25

Average casualties inflicted by artillery over 2 phases: 15.75

Even frontrow cannons would only barely outperform infantry offensively, but also die like flies and be very expensive. Though admittedly the longer the fight goes on the better cannons become, however in the earlygame casualties will usually be relatively low as morale depletes quickly and units don't do much damage yet.

 

[Less2]

Your math doesn't matter and is badly misguided. Artillery compared to infantry doesn't care about shock pips. Infantry don't shoot artillery, so infantry shock offense doesn't matter, while artillery only attack with fire, so infantry shock defense doesn't matter. The infantry unit could have 100/100 off/def shock and nothing would change. Infantry shock only matters vs. other infantry and in that respect they cancel out anyway.

 

[Jarvin]

Time for some actual math. We assume no general, no crossing penalties. Infantry type is Landsknechten Infantry (0/0/1/1/1/2) - which will actually be the worst type because I can't be bothered to also calculate morale casualties. We will use a dice roll result of 5.

Fire Phase Infantry

casualties = (15 + 5 * 5) * 1 * 0.80 * 1 * 1 * (1.05 / 1.5) * 1 * 1 = 22.4

Fire Phase Artillery

casualties = ((15 + 5 * 6) * 1 * 2 * 1 * 1 * (1.05 / 1.5) * 1 * 1) * 0.50 = 31.5

Shock Phase Infantry

casualties = ( 15 + 5 * 6) * 0.978 * 0.95 * 1 * 1 * (1.05/ 1.5) * 1.03 * 1 = 30.1

Shock Phase Artillery

casualties = 0

-----

Average casualties inflicted by infantry over 2 phases: 26.25

Average casualties inflicted by artillery over 2 phases: 15.75

Even frontrow cannons would only barely outperform infantry offensively, but also die like flies and be very expensive. Though admittedly the longer the fight goes on the better cannons become, however in the earlygame casualties will usually be relatively low as morale depletes quickly and units don't do much damage yet.

would you care to explain each individual factor in your maffs?
I tried to follow but I got lost really quickly

 

[klingonadmiral]

would you care to explain each individual factor in your maffs?
I tried to follow but I got lost really quickly

It's:

(15 + 5 * dice) # dice is the dice roll + offensive unit pips + any relative leader skill - crossing penalties - defensive unit pips of the enemy

*

unit strength # 1000 man regiment = 1, 0 man regiment = 0

*

unit attack damage # shock/fire gained from technology

*

(1 + damage modifier) # +x% shock/fire damage from techs, age bonuses etc

*

(1+ CA) # combat ability

*

(attacker discipline / defender tactics)

*
(1 + daily increment) # every day, damage dealt increases by 1%. I made a small error here as this starts out at 1.01, but it wouldn't affect the results in any major way

*

(1- defender damage resist) # -x% shock/fire damage received

. Infantry don't shoot artillery, so infantry shock offense doesn't matter, while artillery only attack with fire, so infantry shock defense doesn't matter.

In my example, both units are shooting at infantry, namely Reformed Gallolaigh Infantry.

 

[Jarvin]

It's:

(15 + 5 * dice) # dice is the dice roll + offensive unit pips + any relative leader skill - crossing penalties - defensive unit pips of the enemy

*

unit strength # 1000 man regiment = 1, 0 man regiment = 0

*

unit attack damage # shock/fire gained from technology

*

(1 + damage modifier) # +x% shock/fire damage from techs, age bonuses etc

*

(1+ CA) # combat ability

*

(attacker discipline / defender tactics)

*
(1 + daily increment) # every day, damage dealt increases by 1%. I made a small error here as this starts out at 1.01, but it wouldn't affect the results in any major way

*

(1- defender damage resist) # -x% shock/fire damage received



In my example, both units are shooting at infantry, namely Reformed Gallolaigh Infantry.

Oke oke, makes sense
guess I made a good decision by actually updating the formulas on wiki to something correct. Glad people like you are making use of it <3

as a note though, I think using 70% for infantry rather than 100% is a better approximation of their average strength througout the battle

 

[Less2]

In my example, both units are shooting at infantry, namely Reformed Gallolaigh Infantry.

It doesn't matter, your math is meaningless and irrelevant. Artillery are not "weaker" than infantry due to not having shock pips. Comparing total number of pips between different unit types is completely useless.

 

[klingonadmiral]

as a note though, I think using 70% for infantry rather than 100% is a better approximation of their average strength througout the battle

I was specifically simulating the first two phases of combat. Beyond that, thing get very complex as dice rolls vary, defensive modifiers become important etc.

It doesn't matter, your math is meaningless and irrelevant. Artillery are not "weaker" than infantry due to not having shock pips. Comparing total number of pips between different unit types is completely useless.

I am not comparing only pips, I am comparing unit types. What makes earlygame artillery, even as Spain, not as good as infantry is the fact that it deals basically no shock damage. Artillery shock starts at 0.05 and maxes out at 0.55.

 

[RobbieAB]

@klingonadmiral Does artillery ever deal significant shock damage? The key factor in artillery effectiveness is it deals fire damage, so it "goes first", and it deals a lot of it.

This is also why any maths assuming full strength units for comparison is going to be highly suspect: units are almost never at full strength in the shock phase.

Most nations start transitioning to artillery heavy at tech 16. My question is more does Spain start that transition immediately at tech 10?

Obviously the ideal composition is going to depend on economic ability to support the army, and the manpower capacity to sustain casualties, but that is a rather bigger question than "just how amazing is +1artillery fire?"

 

[Less2]

I am not comparing only pips, I am comparing unit types. What makes earlygame artillery, even as Spain, not as good as infantry is the fact that it deals basically no shock damage. Artillery shock starts at 0.05 and maxes out at 0.55.

You are clearly comparing unit pips.

By the time you form Spain, you will have tech 9 infantry which has 5 pips.

Uhm, they matter especially since artillery is idle during the shock phase.

As I said, infantry could have 100/100 shock and it would not matter one bit.

 

[Wethospu]

I was specifically simulating the first two phases of combat. Beyond that, thing get very complex as dice rolls vary, defensive modifiers become important etc.

You can try using https://euiv.pdxsimulator.com/ to simulate actual battles. Unfortunately I haven't had time to add other modifiers than tech so you have to edit some units manually (by clicking on their icon).