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Klausewitz

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At the moment all planes, but especially bombers and rockets, are RIDICIOUSLY accurate.
Which is not particular accurate in either the historical (aiming meachnisms, bomb designs, etc) or physical plane (deviation, side winds, etc.).
One of the main reasons, poor air to ground communications and the inability to accurately mark the target for the plane (often just a tossed smoke grenade that could go near or far and would then depend on what the pilot sees first) is unlikely to be modelled because we all like our ability to control our planes.
But the other thing, the whole idea of inaccuracy, we can tackle.
Preferably in the future planes will mostly do suppression and only kill in lucky hits (e.g. the plane manages to put the bomb directly on target) and have a standard circle of deviation just like artillery.
The main advantage of planes should be FASTER suppression.
 

TGApples

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I think this would be a better mechanic, though I'm not sure how it would work with AT rocket planes. Figuring out what the target is when it's a big tank is a lot easier than if it's a particular point in a hedge.

Then there's the whole price balancing thing. Planes are pretty balance with regard to price right now.
 

Max_Damage

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Flat manifold damage reduction that would 100% ban 1 hit kills with planes. Let those who want to play air, play air. But it shouldnt spoil everything else.

1 bombing run kills 2 men/crew and pins the unit this is enough to be worth it already.
 
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Tank Girl

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I think this would be a better mechanic, though I'm not sure how it would work with AT rocket planes. Figuring out what the target is when it's a big tank is a lot easier than if it's a particular point in a hedge.

Then there's the whole price balancing thing. Planes are pretty balance with regard to price right now.

Planes pricing? LoL!

They could easily be x2 or x3 their current price and still be worth it.
Especially when u take into consideration how much AA you need to not even have a guarantee of downing a plane. (4 Möbelwagen, 4 Wirbelwind, 3 SdKfzAA + Command Vehicle). I take down an average of 2 planes a game, making up like 20% of the AA cost. And the planes still drop their payload most of the time without missing.
 

Klausewitz

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I think this would be a better mechanic, though I'm not sure how it would work with AT rocket planes. Figuring out what the target is when it's a big tank is a lot easier than if it's a particular point in a hedge.

Then there's the whole price balancing thing. Planes are pretty balance with regard to price right now.
Yes, there should be a different mechanic for direct fire weapons hitting targets in the open.
But even then i would include a circle in which the plane 'decides' which vehicle it will hit (weighed towards bigger vehicles, but still).
Air support, especially tactically air support in WW2 was not a accurate science.
Flat manifold damage reduction that would 100% ban 1 hit kills with planes. Let those who want to play air, play air. But it shouldnt spoil everything else.
If you cripple it, nobody will use it. You will just see the artillery spam escalate.

I want planes to be good at suppression and at attacking targets in the open (yes, infantry in the open is meat for a plane until they all hit the dirt... which is when the plane will be unable to do much more because movement is what makes the infantry targetable) but bad at directly destroying equipment and hitting things in cover.
 

Klausewitz

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Planes pricing? LoL!

They could easily be x2 or x3 their current price and still be worth it.
Especially when u take into consideration how much AA you need to not even have a guarantee of downing a plane. (4 Möbelwagen, 4 Wirbelwind, 3 SdKfzAA + Command Vehicle). I take down an average of 2 planes a game, making up like 20% of the AA cost. And the planes still drop their payload most of the time without missing.
This.
Accuracy, espcially when under fire, needs to drop HARD.
 

Max_Damage

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Yes, there should be a different mechanic for direct fire weapons hitting targets in the open.
But even then i would include a circle in which the plane 'decides' which vehicle it will hit (weighed towards bigger vehicles, but still).
Air support, especially tactically air support in WW2 was not a accurate science.

If you cripple it, nobody will use it. You will just see the artillery spam escalate.

I want planes to be good at suppression and at attacking targets in the open (yes, infantry in the open is meat for a plane until they all hit the dirt... which is when the plane will be unable to do much more because movement is what makes the infantry targetable) but bad at directly destroying equipment and hitting things in cover.
It will not cripple it you can still have 3 or 4 bombers for 1 shot kills and also it gives you on demand instand supression anywhere on the map. This is enough of an advantage to be worth striving for.

The goal is the make air domination a soft factor, not a hard one like it is right now.

Accuracy nerf will not help, the planes will still keep oneshotting things from time to time.

Arti isnt this bad, it will miss and it will never oneshot.
 

Klausewitz

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An accuracy reduction would also buff area bombers nicely, as they'd get actually a sense (small, but reliable damage in an area).
Exactly.
Historically more small bombs were used because you got reliable damage over a larger area and had a higher probability hitting anything at all, compared to one big bomb which is hit/miss.
 

Klausewitz

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It will not cripple it you can still have 3 or 4 bombers for 1 shot kills and also it gives you on demand instand supression anywhere on the map. This is enough of an advantage to be worth striving for.

The goal is the make air domination a soft factor, not a hard one like it is right now.
Sorry. :)
I took you to literally.
 

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God, I hate the god damned rocket planes right now. Pinpoint accuracy from even base vet. Yeah, they don't really kill tanks, but AAA and AT guns are getting murdered.

The JU-88 is turning into the favorite douchebag plane too since it evacs at 600 km/h (only P-47 fighter from 2ID can catch it.... NICE ONE EUGEN), drops 1000 kilos of bombs and can take a pounding from 4 or 5 AAA pieces and still make the drop.
 

Klausewitz

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The JU-88 is turning into the favorite douchebag plane too since it evacs at 600 km/h (only P-47 fighter from 2ID can catch it.... NICE ONE EUGEN), drops 1000 kilos of bombs and can take a pounding from 4 or 5 AAA pieces and still make the drop.
The first parts historical though; they basically threw everything out to make that thing go that fast... precisely so that American and British fighters would not be easily able to catch it.
 

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Dude, the MAXIMUM top speed of a JU-88 in real life was 510 km/h.

It is 600 km/h in game which is the same speed as the P-51 IN GAME. 50 km/h faster than the Spitfire IN GAME. The P-47 has a top speed of 750 km/h IN GAME. Nevermind those IN GAME speeds for the Allied fighters are all over the place too.

Shit is broken.

Air stats need a complete overhaul. Like the only planes that seem like they're remotely on point are the slow as hell Stukas and HS's.
 

Klausewitz

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Dude, the MAXIMUM top speed of a JU-88 in real life was 510 km/h.
No.
The maximum speed of the Ju-88S-3, which was a variant from late 1943 with Jumo 213 A with a GM-1 Anlage could do 600 at 6000 m and 615 at 9000.
That was a variant where they took everything out but a single defense weapon and some armor to make the plane lighter and faster.

I cannot comment on the speed of the Allied fighters because i did not pay attention, but the Ju-88 S is accurate.
Flies a little low though, probably.

Edit:
All planes seem to fly quite low, probably no more than 1000 m.
That would significantly influence their speed (lower in the atmosphere = 'thicker' air = less speed for the same amount of Horsepower) though quite differently.
IIRc the Spitfire and the Mustang would be more severly impacted (since they were fighters and interceptors designed for higher altitudes all the way up to 30000 feet and above) while the Typhoon, the Tempest and the Thunderbolt, which relied more on brute force by way of their engines for their speed than aerodynamic niceties would far (comparable) better.
 
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Great, 615 kmh at 9000m when its doing pinpoint bombing at friggin sea level.

I'm glad they've got a fast bomber, but it shouldn't be pulling away from any fighters in 1944.

If Eugen is so stupid to use high altitude values for the Ju-88 then I guess it should use them for every plane, which means the Spitfire MkIX should have 650 km/h, the Mustang should have 710 and the P-47 should be like 700.





"Flies a little low though" come on, GTFO, its like 200m off the deck. I get that its a game, but let's pretend at least that we don't need to take maximum optimal stats from high altitude to give the Germans a troll bomber.
 

Klausewitz

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Great, 615 kmh at 9000m when its doing pinpoint bombing at friggin sea level.

I'm glad they've got a fast bomber, but it shouldn't be pulling away from any fighters in 1944.

If Eugen is so stupid to use high altitude values for the Ju-88 then I guess it should use them for every plane, which means the Spitfire MkIX should have 650 km/h, the Mustang should have 710 and the P-47 should be like 700.





"Flies a little low though" come on, GTFO, its like 200m off the deck. I get that its a game, but let's pretend at least that we don't need to take maximum optimal stats from high altitude to give the Germans a troll bomber.
I adressed that in the Edit, and i am generally in agreement with you.
 

evilcat

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At least for bomber there should be position bombing (circle). That sounds like more accurate (haha) simulation of how it works.
Strafe and dive bombers could workd different.
 

Kai Lae

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(Puts on combat sim pilot hat)

Planes in game....really annoy me at the moment. I'll go through what's bugging me:

1. You have the air superiority BF-109's in game carrying the R6 Rustastze - which is 2x MG151 20mm cannons in conformal packs under the wings. Only problem is the guns reduced top speed, reduced roll rate, and reduced climb rate - which would make 109 more ineffective in a dogfight. Especially the climbrate which was the signature advantage of the 109. The R6 would be fitted when doing bomber intercept missions, not air superiority. So, Eugen has selected a loadout that actually should make the plane less effective.

2. The R6 modification to the 190 - which is the WGr21 rocket - was designed for air to air combat, not for ground attack. It was supposed to be used against massed formations of B-17's and B-24's. The german fighters would fire them outside defensive gun range of the bomber formation - a very large overall target - hoping that the explosions would break up the bomber formation and allow more effective gun attacks. Direct hits were rare because the projectile was a low velocity rocket, and therefore hard to aim. The lower the velocity rocket, the more wind and bad aim can affect the round. This is also why the model shown is wrong, because the rocket tubes were angled upwards at 15 degrees because the rocket would otherwise miss low. While it was sometimes used against ground targets, it would not be very effective unless fired in a steep dive or at very close range. Historically this use was uncommon, but Eugen has it as a standard ground attack option. I should also mention it made the planes carrying them vulnerable to interception.

3. Performance information in game is whack. Most fighter planes in game behave better the higher they go, with the notable exception of the FW-190 and the spitfire IX (assuming it is the merlin 66 engined LF one, which is probably true). The 109 and the american fighters would be considerably slower than their top speeds at the altitudes shown in game. Most attack aircraft however would be configured to operate at this altitude. Depending on the plane, if it was equipped with the GM1 system (this is a nitrous system by the way) it might be able to engage it and escape interception. I'll summarize something though: no bomber other than the Ju-88s would be able to outrun a fighter, and I'd bet money on the Ju-88 being able to run away as being circumstantial.

4. Ease of destroying a target. When a firing position has been reached, in order to destroy an enemy plane, all it takes is a single good burst and they're done. The sight of any fighter struggling to shoot down a storch or piper cub is hilarious. If engaged the only defense such a plane would be it's much tighter turning radius in the horizontal - which is why anyone would make a vertical attack. Then again, they go so slow and so low it's not impossible to lose them in background clutter. Spotting targets IRL is not easy or automatic.

5. Completely agree about the area bomb indication stated by OP with regards to level bombers. What you should see is a line of bombs exploding. However, it should be noted that the Ju-88 had dive brakes and could, and would, make dive bombing attacks for precision attacks.

6. Spotting camouflaged guns, hidden infantry, etc from the air is very hard. This is why they were commonly vectored to an area by ground controllers or by rockets fired (smoke rockets) from observation planes. Moving tanks or armored vehicles in the open is not super easy but doable. The human eye is drawn to motion and there's nothing to hide you.

And one thing that doesn't, and one that does:

7. A single AA gun is not much of a threat, unless you're low and slow - or surprised by it. Multiple ones firing from different directions? Different story. Either time to GTFO or just realize you're probably going to get hit some. Also, FYI, at the altitudes shown in game, large caliber, slow firing weapons - like the german 88 - are not effective. They are used for higher flying targets that light AAA can't reach. Still makes a good AT gun through.
 

fufubear

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The first parts historical though; they basically threw everything out to make that thing go that fast... precisely so that American and British fighters would not be easily able to catch it.
The ju 88 wold easily be caught by the mustang. In fact all planes in this game currently should be easily caught by the mustang. The fact that the thunderbolt and 190a8 easily out run the mustang is bs. Imo the mustang has the most unhistorical nerfs.

No.
The maximum speed of the Ju-88S-3, which was a variant from late 1943 with Jumo 213 A with a GM-1 Anlage could do 600 at 6000 m and 615 at 9000.
That was a variant where they took everything out but a single defense weapon and some armor to make the plane lighter and faster.

I cannot comment on the speed of the Allied fighters because i did not pay attention, but the Ju-88 S is accurate.
Flies a little low though, probably.

Edit:
All planes seem to fly quite low, probably no more than 1000 m.
That would significantly influence their speed (lower in the atmosphere = 'thicker' air = less speed for the same amount of Horsepower) though quite differently.
IIRc the Spitfire and the Mustang would be more severly impacted (since they were fighters and interceptors designed for higher altitudes all the way up to 30000 feet and above) while the Typhoon, the Tempest and the Thunderbolt, which relied more on brute force by way of their engines for their speed than aerodynamic niceties would far (comparable) better.
The thing is by 6000m the mustang would be doing over 700kmh.

At low altitude the thunderbolt was slow. Since this is supposed to be 1944 the thunderbolt would be limited to 56" and have the paddle prop which means it could only do around 555-560kmh at sea level. The mustang with 75" would do over 600kmh.