Artifacts: The Good, The Bad, and The Broken

[MatthewP]

For me, I like artifacts more for their RP value than for a stat boost. I'd much rather have artifacts that don't affect stats (or preferably only stats related to prestige, piety, renown, or grandeur as those are all stats that make sense to possibly increase depending on your artifact), but instead are there visually for your royal court or on your character portrait and potentially allow for artifact-related events or changes to events if you have a specific kind of artifact. There are many possibilities to make artifacts interesting and also make them mean something to the player without them having to give you stats. So yes, it can be "useful" without stats.

If all they do is give you stats like in CK2, do you really care about them if you can just replace them with other items that give the same stats? I had so many artifacts in CK2 and if I were to lose one, I'd have another there ready to go with the same stats. There wasn't any reason to care about any of them.

My hope is that they'll do something with artifacts to make them valued by the player for more than just stats. An example would be if your dynasty (possibly you, possibly another) got a crown artifact for the first dynasty member who becomes a king (or perhaps emperor). It would be something that is entirely about your dynasty and something that shows an important event in your dynasty. If you were to get the white stag, it can be an artifact (mounted head or whatever) showing your success in that event. These are much better options than just hiring someone to make an artifact that can be made repeatedly by anyone who has the money and artisan to do it.

Well, I mostly agree with this. Having artifacts do more interesting things to help the player than just give stat boosts is, well, more interesting, as is having artifacts come from unique/special events instead of just a decision and some money.

I’m not sure I agree with the “stats are bad” premise. But as with most mechanics if the devs are willing/able to put in the time to add something deeper I think that would be good.

 

[Hichel]

I would make artifacts only have rarity, but that would help increase the prestige of your castle (armory, monastery, court, library) and as the level of prestige of parts of the castle grows, then there would be bonus to prestige, splendour, piety, some stats or traits.

Though the player, items or not always will go for higher stats with already is a headstart against the AI that not always take it into consideration...and this is what could be tweaked a bit to help

 

[klopkr]

I thought artifacts were going to work with some kind of splendor mechanic where artifact and impressive stuff collecting is seen as a requirement to maintain the dignity and power of your monarchy. Something you're maintaining and adding to keep the vassals impressed.

 

[Rubidium]

Yeah, if artifacts only add grandeur (as opposed to, say, a fancy sword also giving martial or prowess in a stackable fashion), and grandeur's effects are capped and not game-breaking, then it will probably be fine.

But it's still something to watch; a bunch of "not game-breaking" things stacked together can easily become game-breaking. So for example they add grandeur now and have it generate some level of renown at max value, some other system that adds renown gain in another DLC, etc., etc., pretty soon every player character will end up with ludicrous renown generation and unlocking all the dynastic legacies within a few years (as an example). It's not insurmountable (you want DLC mechanics to be meaningful and useful), but it's definitely something worth keeping in mind and doing regular balance passes.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

Just for instance, for me there should not be "boss type" opponents. Just other characters with their own agendas and different levels of power attained dynamically in a simulation of the medieval times. And this includes the inability for most characters (exscept those rare ones with very high stats) to attain a very large blob for a long time and specially over different generations, thus voiding the concept of "boss type" opponents. I can only hope that is the direction the game designers take for the future.

For me, the lack of "baggage", for lack of a better term, was immersion murder in CK2. Sure, I could stack all of these opinion boni as a 300-year dynasty, but there should always be some people who have a conflict of interest over "me" being on the throne: not pressing their claims, not fighting the people they want to fight, not letting them fight, various marriage-related conflicts. Quite a lot of potential for extra ambitions instead of fighting for a position on my council IMO.

And the fact I don't need to pay for incomes court titles generate for my vassals.

Factions becoming a more permanent feature of the realm could prove to be the "boss" players might ask for. Never understood why vassals forming factions that last for generations was never a thing, and instead we have the crazy Mongol horde.

 

[Jarolleon]

Stat creep doesn't mean anything.

Stats don't do much and the limiting factor on the player is never how much gold you make/levy you raise/opinion you have etc.

The limiting factor for late game play has always been UI/UX friendliness, number of clicks to get things done, tediousness of army management during warfare, pop-up fatigue and most of all the terrible AI which never competently keeps a realm stable enough to be a formidable "boss"-type opponent.

Those are the things that I notice during the mid-late game play. You can cut my stats in half or by 3/4 for all I care and the AI will still never be a challenge, and the interface, messages and pop-ups will still get in the way.

I'm sure they'll throw China in at some point to create a boss-type opponent once the power creep gets so absurd that you hit the "late game" in 2 generations, just like in ck2. Member when they added the x25 crisis in Stellaris because they broke the AI so bad that min-maxers couldn't have fun anymore?

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

I'm sure they'll throw China in at some point to create a boss-type opponent once the power creep gets so absurd that you hit the "late game" in 2 generations, just like in ck2. Member when they added the x25 crisis in Stellaris because they broke the AI so bad that min-maxers couldn't have fun anymore?

Oh god please no. A Khitan or Mongol invasion is realistic though, just can't see how it's supposed to work with a Jurchen or Han China since both aren't nomads.

 

[Thukula]

With artifacts coming, can we please have a discussion on how they were completely unbalanced in CK2? Before I get into that, I will say nice things about artifacts.

Artifacts allow you to customize your character and add a nice RPG element to character building. With CK3's new 3D characters, dressing them up will probably be fun. Artifact hunting also provides you with long-term goals to pursue which is always a good thing in a game spanning almost 600 years.

Unfortunately, Artifacts, on the whole, were quite disruptive and balance breaking in CK2. Artifacts were permanent gains to all personal stats, general opinion, piety, prestige, health, fertility, and all kinds of other things. They were straight up a handicap in the player's favour because the AI was never smart enough to collect them the way that a player would. The introduction of artifacts were no less than a massive power shift in the player's favour that was never needed. After getting a full set, all of your rulers, for the rest of the game were between low 30s in stats to high 40s. Artifacts essentially deified all of your characters for the rest of the game with no additional cost after acquiring them.

I hope the developers are reading this and thinking about ways to not have artifacts break the balance of the game in CK3. Given how easy it is to acquire more money than you can possibly spend in CK3, there's a real danger of artifacts completely trivializing the entire game if they look anything like artifacts from CK2.

I respectfully disagree, along with Wonders, I've always found CKII Artifacts very nerfed, compared to the time and cost to get them, look at this for example:

Shroud of Jesus:
+0.5 Monthly Prestige
+0.5 Monthly Piety
+5 Same Religion
+5% National Levy Size

Bones of St. Peter:
+0.1 Monthly Prestige
+0.5 Monthly Piety
+10 Same Religion
-10% Build Cost Modifier
-10% Build Time Modifier

Holy Grail:
+2 Monthly Prestige
+0.5 Monthly Piety
+1 Health
+10 Same Religion

Dude, that seems pretty fair to me, considering the minimal chance you'll acquire these artifacts, and in the end, it's just a few small bonuses, when compared to how far you're already in-game.

 

[Jia Xu]

I respectfully disagree, along with Wonders, I've always found CKII Artifacts very nerfed, compared to the time and cost to get them, look at this for example:

Shroud of Jesus:
+0.5 Monthly Prestige
+0.5 Monthly Piety
+5 Same Religion
+5% National Levy Size

Bones of St. Peter:
+0.1 Monthly Prestige
+0.5 Monthly Piety
+10 Same Religion
-10% Build Cost Modifier
-10% Build Time Modifier

Holy Grail:
+2 Monthly Prestige
+0.5 Monthly Piety
+1 Health
+10 Same Religion

Dude, that seems pretty fair to me, considering the minimal chance you'll acquire these artifacts, and in the end, it's just a few small bonuses, when compared to how far you're already in-game.

If you don't understand why a permanent (and stackable) +10 general opinion with ALL members of your religion FOR THE REST OF THE GAME is overpowered, rethink it. lol

Once you have a few of these general opinion artifacts, you've won the game, essentially.

 

[Thukula]

If you don't understand why a permanent (and stackable) +10 general opinion with ALL members of your religion FOR THE REST OF THE GAME is overpowered, rethink it. lol

Once you have a few of these general opinion artifacts, you've won the game, essentially.

Exactly, +10 ONLY, the opinion scopes to -100 to +100, what are miserable +10 opinion bonus?

 

[Vanhal]

If you nerf everything, nothing will be worth any effort.

Only problem with artifacts in CK2 was forcing Hermetic society on everyone because it was so much better than the rest of them, and i really think this wont repeat.

 

[Thukula]

If you nerf everything, nothing will be worth any effort.

Only problem with artifacts in CK2 was forcing Hermetic society on everyone because it was so much better than the rest of them, and i really think this wont repeat.

That's the main problem, in my opinion, damn hermetic societies!

 

[Torredebelem]

I respectfully disagree, along with Wonders, I've always found CKII Artifacts very nerfed, compared to the time and cost to get them, look at this for example:

Shroud of Jesus:
+0.5 Monthly Prestige
+0.5 Monthly Piety
+5 Same Religion
+5% National Levy Size

Bones of St. Peter:
+0.1 Monthly Prestige
+0.5 Monthly Piety
+10 Same Religion
-10% Build Cost Modifier
-10% Build Time Modifier

Holy Grail:
+2 Monthly Prestige
+0.5 Monthly Piety
+1 Health
+10 Same Religion

Dude, that seems pretty fair to me, considering the minimal chance you'll acquire these artifacts, and in the end, it's just a few small bonuses, when compared to how far you're already in-game.

The problem is not about what bonuses ONE artifact gives, it's the cumulative results of several artifacts collected over some generations.

 

[Thukula]

The problem is not about what bonuses ONE artifact gives, it's the cumulative results of several artifacts collected over some generations.

Damn bro, how do you collected all those artifacts? I never collected more than 3 at the same time in CKII (Almost never a tier 4 or above at same time)

 

[Torredebelem]

Damn bro, how do you collected all those artifacts? I never collected more than 3 at the same time in CKII (Almost never a tier 4 or above at same time)

There are more than three artifacts in the game. You presents just some of the most "prestigious ones". I was referring to the whole list of artifacts and how the bonuses they give stack. Hopefully artifacts in the new DLC will be nerfed, if not in the bonuses given, then in their potency over time or their availability from generation to generation.

 

[Thukula]

There are more than three artifacts in the game. You presents just some of the most "prestigious ones". I was referring to the whole list of artifacts and how the bonuses they give stack. Hopefully artifacts in the new DLC will be nerfed, if not in the bonuses given, then in their potency over time or their availability from generation to generation.

Now I have to agree with you, for what I've read, artifacts now will have a cost to keep a maintenance over the years, they will be passed to generation to generation, but will lose value and effectiveness over time, and they will have to be improved and reforged to return to their original status. It's now seens. It's now seems fair and balanced to me.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

Exactly, +10 ONLY, the opinion scopes to -100 to +100, what are miserable +10 opinion bonus?

If you speedrun and get -120k opinion through tyranny +10 is negligible. If you try to play out until 1453, stackable +10 may as well rename itself to "heir designation under elective".

If you nerf everything, nothing will be worth any effort.

Only problem with artifacts in CK2 was forcing Hermetic society on everyone because it was so much better than the rest of them, and i really think this wont repeat.

Maybe it was an attempt to buff religions that didn't get a society by making it more powerful than the monastic ones.

Now I have to agree with you, for what I've read, artifacts now will have a cost to keep a maintenance over the years, they will be passed to generation to generation, but will lose value and effectiveness over time, and they will have to be improved and reforged to return to their original status. It's now seens. It's now seems fair and balanced to me.

Artifacts of pure gold would probably have a very slow decay to represent its immunity to rust, and all the maintenance that needed to be done would be brushing it off. Finally, a cost-and-effect argument for getting artifacts made of gold instead of silver.

 

[Karlington]

I respectfully disagree, along with Wonders, I've always found CKII Artifacts very nerfed, compared to the time and cost to get them, look at this for example:

Shroud of Jesus:
+0.5 Monthly Prestige
+0.5 Monthly Piety
+5 Same Religion
+5% National Levy Size

Bones of St. Peter:
+0.1 Monthly Prestige
+0.5 Monthly Piety
+10 Same Religion
-10% Build Cost Modifier
-10% Build Time Modifier

Holy Grail:
+2 Monthly Prestige
+0.5 Monthly Piety
+1 Health
+10 Same Religion

Dude, that seems pretty fair to me, considering the minimal chance you'll acquire these artifacts, and in the end, it's just a few small bonuses, when compared to how far you're already in-game.

As has been mentioned before, the main benefits tended to accrue when you stacked artifacts.

Also, that's the fake holy grail. The real one gives +4 Health.

 

[Jia Xu]

Exactly, +10 ONLY, the opinion scopes to -100 to +100, what are miserable +10 opinion bonus?

Artifacts - Crusader Kings II Wiki

ck2.paradoxwikis.com

If you do a Ctrl F search on this page for the word 'opinion' it retrieves 112 results. There were a lot of artifacts in CK2 that gave unneeded opinion bonuses. You got stacking vassal opinion from most of the stuff you could wear like your crown, scepter, etc. Books gave opinion bonuses and not even necessarily really good/rare ones either. In CK3, your artifact buffs would also stack with your dynasty perk buffs which are also permanent buffs that last for the entire campaign.

You're just wrong on this one because you're not looking at the big picture.

 

[Rubidium]

If you nerf everything, nothing will be worth any effort.

Only problem with artifacts in CK2 was forcing Hermetic society on everyone because it was so much better than the rest of them, and i really think this wont repeat.

Monastic society actually was arguably better, and for the same reason as the artifacts: it allowed you to essentially remove all of your sins and gain all the virtues (which meant you got the associated opinion bonuses, especially as in CK2, all virtues except chaste and arguably generous were strictly better stat-wise than their opposing vices). And unlocked the ability to remove vices/add virtues to your heir as well. And you ended up getting holy relics handed to you fairly consistently (either as rewards for completing missions or through random events like the one where you can steal a relic).

Plus the monastic random events in general were much better than the hermetic ones (which tended to generate rivals at the drop of a hat, or potentially even leave you imprisoned).

But the big problem wasn't individual artifacts, it was that they stacked. So that within a few generations every player had accumulated a zillion random bonuses that made a newly crowned ruler a literal god on earth.