Artifact power creep and a solution

[Zylathas]

Preface: this is not MY solution, but I thought it was a that great solution from Reddit that it definitely deserves a spot here (and a kind dev reaction perhaps?) as it solves most of the power creep artifacts have.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/13ceeoc
Artifacts should not give 50% more prowess than the blademaster trait. If you pair a weapon like this with armor you can easily get over 20 prowes which is almost twice the prowess bonus you get from the Legendary Blademaster Trait (12 prowess). In the new update OPB was able to obtain a weapon like this in a single lifetime.

It leads to scenarios where a veteran warrior famed throughout the kingdom for his mastery of combat can get overpowered with ease by a 16 year old inbred imbecile who never held a sword in his life - It's ridiculous and contributes to over the top stat bloat which makes the game boring. With how easy artifacts are obtained in the new update this should not be happening.

SOLUTION: Give weapon and armor artifacts percentage prowess modifiers instead of flat bonus. For example a sword that boosts prowess by 20% will be incredible for a skilled warrior but almost useless in the hands of a novice with no experience.

 

[Ksiendzu]

Great idea! Maybe create a suggestion thread about this?

 

[Monalba]

That's not a solution.

After a few centuries, when the player is done with their eugenics program, and specially if they've reformed their culture, there will be people around with dozens and dozens of prowess.
Give a knight with 40 prowess a +50% bonus and you just unleashed a MONSTER in this world.

On the other hand, at the beginning of the game, when people have low prowess, giving your best knight, a guy with 14 prowess a +20% weapon, you just gave them nothing. 3 prowess, rounding up. That means they're still going to get slaughtered in the next fight against a berserk.


I understand the idea, but maybe it's more about rebalancing prowess than about rebalancing modifiers and bonuses.

 

[Zylathas]

That's not a solution.

After a few centuries, when the player is done with their eugenics program, and specially if they've reformed their culture, there will be people around with dozens and dozens of prowess.
Give a knight with 40 prowess a +50% bonus and you just unleashed a MONSTER in this world.

On the other hand, at the beginning of the game, when people have low prowess, giving your best knight, a guy with 14 prowess a +20% weapon, you just gave them nothing. 3 prowess, rounding up. That means they're still going to get slaughtered in the next fight against a berserk.


I understand the idea, but maybe it's more about rebalancing prowess than about rebalancing modifiers and bonuses.

So because some people min max there shouldn't be a balancing effort. Hard disagree on that one. There will always be min maxers and in this proposed system there will always be edge cases. But it does fix over 99% over the issues the current system has.

 

[Monalba]

So because some people min max there shouldn't be a balancing effort. Hard disagree on that one. There will always be min maxers and in this proposed system there will always be edge cases. But it does fix over 99% over the issues the current system has.

It's not about min maxing.

I think the main issue is that the devs did not anticipate how easy it would be to inflate prowess. And still don't. I mean, just check the accolade requirement. 8 Prowess.
That is ridiculously low. The Herculean trait by itself gives you 8 prowess.
And the trait is not that hard to get, the game even helps you on getting it, since there is a whole row of perks on the dynasty legacy tab that helps you get and improve genetic traits.

There are also personality traits and a bunch of other stuff that will also give you Prowess.

But at the beginning of the game or if you don't go after prowess bonuses (Which BTW, you should, as some cultures just get them anyway. An example being the Asatru, who can get Berserk, which is an instant +5 prowess, meaning they will murder your knights in battle if they are not competent at least), a percentage bonus will be nothing.
Like I said, +10% or 20% for a regular knight early on is nothing. Barely anything. 2 or 3 prowess.
And honestly, that's lame and boring and would make a lot of artifacts pretty dull. Picking this spear, this sword or that mace makes no difference because they all only give you +2 prowess.

I have to say, I don't think it's a terrible idea, specially if you were to mix it both % and flat bonuses.
For example, a spear, made for war, can give a big %, making it useful for warriors.
However, a dagger could give a flat bonus, +6, meaning it would be more useful for low prowess character that want to defend themselves.

But once we start seeing those numbers, we go back to the beginning, the numbers start inflating and they spiral out of control (that's why you start seeing super buffed characters later in the game, they all have ridiculously high prowess)

What I say is, instead of having, let's say, 8 prowess and the floor for a decent fighter, and 20 and beyond being just legendary, increase the numbers.
Make 20 the floor for a decent character.
Those below 10? Terrible, keep them away from fights. They would benefit from daggers (flat bonuses) and maybe some armors that could also give flat bonuses.
Between 10 and 20? They can defend themselves. Mix of equipment, depends of the circumstances.
20 to 30? Your knights. Men at at arms. These guys can use those spears and artifacts with big %.

So that's my idea. Is not about the artifacts, is the prowess. We live in a prowess inflation game, we gotta fix those numbers. But I know that would take time and effort, since traits and whatnot would need to be balanced.

 

[Dayvit78]

That's not a solution.

After a few centuries, when the player is done with their eugenics program, and specially if they've reformed their culture, there will be people around with dozens and dozens of prowess.
Give a knight with 40 prowess a +50% bonus and you just unleashed a MONSTER in this world.

On the other hand, at the beginning of the game, when people have low prowess, giving your best knight, a guy with 14 prowess a +20% weapon, you just gave them nothing. 3 prowess, rounding up. That means they're still going to get slaughtered in the next fight against a berserk.


I understand the idea, but maybe it's more about rebalancing prowess than about rebalancing modifiers and bonuses.

I mentioned a similar thing in a power balance discussion about another game...
Early game - give flat bonuses
Late game - give % bonuses
The dev agreed But it's kinda the opposite of what you say here. The point was to make bonuses meaningful.

 

[Aliquam]

The point was to make bonuses meaningful.

But what we have going on now is akin to fantasy weaponry. Paradox considers that players love hoarding artifacts so they make even a most common and regular sword giving bonuses that can give an edge over a better warrior.

And higher tier weapons are just pure fantasy - in fantasy a peasant may win over a hardened warrior due to posession of a legendary flaming axiomatic longsword +5 of smiting, but how that even relates to reality?

No matter how prestigious or legendary the artifact is, it shouldn't provide any bonuses higher than "this is a really product of a master weaponmaker" and ex. Saint Maurice's Spear shouldn't penetrate through stone.

 

[MarkFranz]

I agree with proweress bloat being bad. But. Trying to fix it, is equal to going against paradox and they vision. Like, every update is either ignore the bloat, or increase it. While MaA was fixed, Paradox not only ignored problem of space marines bonuses stacking (called "knights" ingame) but will buff them further, giving them extra bonuses and buffs. So if space marine (called "knights" ingame), could kill 100 people (as in warhammer canon) after some modifier stacking, now they will become even more powerfull, and artifact nerf, even artifacts completely removed proweress bonuses, will not affect that in any meaningful way.

 

[Emperor 1997]

Preface: this is not MY solution, but I thought it was a that great solution from Reddit that it definitely deserves a spot here (and a kind dev reaction perhaps?) as it solves most of the power creep artifacts have.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/13ceeoc
Artifacts should not give 50% more prowess than the blademaster trait. If you pair a weapon like this with armor you can easily get over 20 prowes which is almost twice the prowess bonus you get from the Legendary Blademaster Trait (12 prowess). In the new update OPB was able to obtain a weapon like this in a single lifetime.

It leads to scenarios where a veteran warrior famed throughout the kingdom for his mastery of combat can get overpowered with ease by a 16 year old inbred imbecile who never held a sword in his life - It's ridiculous and contributes to over the top stat bloat which makes the game boring. With how easy artifacts are obtained in the new update this should not be happening.

SOLUTION: Give weapon and armor artifacts percentage prowess modifiers instead of flat bonus. For example a sword that boosts prowess by 20% will be incredible for a skilled warrior but almost useless in the hands of a novice with no experience.

I think the Prize Artifacts should not be generated after winning the Tournament, but should be come from the Host's existing Artifacts, if the Host has no Artifacts, no Prize for the Winner of the Tournament.

 

[YellowGelni]

Drpend on how you view it. If you say no equipment is standard weapons ect. you are right. But if we consider that no equipment means naked. Then Charles the sad result of inbreeding in full coustom fit plate armor and a well crafted and maintained weapon has rather good odds against Sir Gregory Saint of the Sword if he had one.

I'd rather argue the effect of prowess on knights should be nerfed (halfed) and no equipment should be replaced by "base equipment" which gives some stats depennding on circumstance. For example every knight would call a +3 weapon and +4 armor to their name and the blade master trait buffs the base weapon by +1 because if you mastered your weapon you likely have or invested in a decent one.

 

[Riaman98]

That's not a solution.

After a few centuries, when the player is done with their eugenics program, and specially if they've reformed their culture, there will be people around with dozens and dozens of prowess.
Give a knight with 40 prowess a +50% bonus and you just unleashed a MONSTER in this world.

On the other hand, at the beginning of the game, when people have low prowess, giving your best knight, a guy with 14 prowess a +20% weapon, you just gave them nothing. 3 prowess, rounding up. That means they're still going to get slaughtered in the next fight against a berserk.


I understand the idea, but maybe it's more about rebalancing prowess than about rebalancing modifiers and bonuses.

easy solution either give +50% prowess or 10 to 15 prowess whichever is lower. It will cap at max 10-15 but a infirm with 0 prowess still won't be able to lift it.