Art Installation: Just a big museum? Disappointed

[Dementor4]

I found the art installation underwhelming in its execution: you spend a similar amount of resources encircling a star in entirety, or building a ring with a habitable area comparable to the surface of the Earth multiplied five or six times. And you get: a big museum.

Really?

How big can a museum reasonably be before any given individual becomes incapable of seeing it all within a lifetime? How many years would it take to see the entirety of a museum the size of, say, New York City?

I was expecting a work of art on a stellar scale. Something the people on the planet below them would see in the sky every morning. Something people in other star systems could see and marvel at with a moderately powerful telescope. A sculpture that encircles and includes their star as a part of it, like you've built a setting for a marvelous jewel, but the jewel is a star.

Now, I get the challenge there: every empire building the same identical giant structure around their star wouldn't seem like very good art. To do the concept justice, you'd have to make several different models, perhaps one for each ship-appearance-type, to keep things interesting. That's extra work, and I get it. But in my opinion, the current implementation is worse than even just having one uniform "giant sculpture" model for every empire.

Side note: Art for the sake of beauty is fine and good, and I don't have an issue with the mechanics of the Art Installation megastructure giving unity and amenities to your empire. I'd like to also note, however, that there are other forms and functions of art which could easily be their own megastructures.

• Galactic Advertisement: A megastructure unique to megacorporations, this mega-structure bends the light of the star its built around to beam targeted advertisements to every inhabited world in the galaxy, appearing in the skies above each planet like a massive, inescapable billboard, increasing the galactic demand your your goods and services. The mega-structure increases the income you receive from commercial pacts, and increases the productivity of all corporate buildings you own.
• Religious Art: Meant to resonate with the inherent spirituality of sentient beings, this art installation increases the galactic pull towards spiritualist ethos, and increases your diplomatic relations with other spiritualist empires, as your faiths find increased common ground between them.

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

I found the art installation underwhelming in its execution: you spend a similar amount of resources encircling a star in entirety, or building a ring with a habitable area comparable to the surface of the Earth multiplied five or six times. And you get: a big museum.

Really?

How big can a museum reasonably be before any given individual becomes incapable of seeing it all within a lifetime? How many years would it take to see the entirety of a museum the size of, say, New York City?

I was expecting a work of art on a stellar scale. Something the people on the planet below them would see in the sky every morning. Something people in other star systems could see and marvel at with a moderately powerful telescope. A sculpture that encircles and includes their star as a part of it, like you've built a setting for a marvelous jewel, but the jewel is a star.

Now, I get the challenge there: every empire building the same identical giant structure around their star wouldn't seem like very good art. To do the concept justice, you'd have to make several different models, perhaps one for each ship-appearance-type, to keep things interesting. That's extra work, and I get it. But in my opinion, the current implementation is worse than even just having one uniform "giant sculpture" model for every empire.

Side note: Art for the sake of beauty is fine and good, and I don't have an issue with the mechanics of the Art Installation megastructure giving unity and amenities to your empire. I'd like to also note, however, that there are other forms and functions of art which could easily be their own megastructures.

• Galactic Advertisement: A megastructure unique to megacorporations, this mega-structure bends the light of the star its built around to beam targeted advertisements to every inhabited world in the galaxy, appearing in the skies above each planet like a massive, inescapable billboard, increasing the galactic demand your your goods and services. The mega-structure increases the income you receive from commercial pacts, and increases the productivity of all corporate buildings you own.
• Religious Art: Meant to resonate with the inherent spirituality of sentient beings, this art installation increases the galactic pull towards spiritualist ethos, and increases your diplomatic relations with other spiritualist empires, as your faiths find increased common ground between them.

The entire and only point of the art installation is to generate a crapton of unity. Building some modern art installation only unifies a small group of people within your empire. Creating a museum that houses all the art your civilization has ever produced unifies your entire empire.

 

[Dementor4]

Creating a museum that houses all the art your civilization has ever produced unifies your entire empire.

Does it?

Things like the Statue of Liberty and the Arc de Triomphe appear to generate more "unity" than big museums like the Met or the Louvre. Massive landmarks create a sense of common identity that people can't help but identify with. Everyone in America knows what the Statue of Liberty is, it's a unifying symbol of our national values. But what percentage of Americans, or even New Yorkers, have been to the Met?

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

Does it?

Things like the Statue of Liberty and the Arc de Triomphe appear to generate more "unity" than big museums like the Met or the Louvre. Massive landmarks create a sense of common identity that people can't help but identify with. Everyone in America knows what the Statue of Liberty is, it's a unifying symbol of our national values. But what percentage of Americans, or even New Yorkers, have been to the Met?

That's fine I suppose, it might make sense to make an art model for every ethic, and that would work for fanatic ethics, but for empires that have 3 different ethics, it would be too many to reasonably model.
How many possible ethics combinations are there, and how can you reasonably reduce that number in a meaningful to reduce the number of models needed to be built?
Well, there 8 ways to choose a fanatic ethic, 3 ways to choose another ethic dichotomy and 2 options on that dichotomy. That's 8*3*2 or 48, but we're not done yet. How many combinations of non-fanatic ethics are there? Well we have 4 ethics dichotomies and 3 to pick, so that's 4 choose 3 which equals 4. Then we have 2 options to pick from each dichotomy so thats 4*2*2*2 or 32. So in total we have 80 possible ethics combinations. How do you reduce that to a more manageable number? 8 seems to be the most reasonable number, but for triple ethic empires how do you decide the dominant ethic? Do you let the player choose the event pops up? and what happens if the empire's ethics change? Does the art installation get blown up or magically change into something else?

 

[Dementor4]

Do you let the player choose the event pops up?

Why wouldn't you?

and what happens if the empire's ethics change? Does the art installation get blown up or magically change into something else?

The Arc de Truimphe was a military monument, built when France was enjoying a particularly militant phase of its history under Napoleon. It would be difficult to argue that France is still militaristic. So what happened to the Arc? Nothing: it's still there. It's still a symbol of national unity, despite the character of the nation having changed drastically. There's no reason to change the monument when the ethics change.

 

[glee8e]

Considering how artist enclave has completed their deals, I have reasons to believe a bulk part of budget of this art installation has went to somewhere it shouldn't go

 

[Dementor4]

Considering how artist enclave has completed their deals, I have reasons to believe a bulk part of budget of this art installation has went to somewhere it shouldn't go

If it was just cash, sure. But this is enough metal to build a planet.

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

Why wouldn't you?



The Arc de Truimphe was a military monument, built when France was enjoying a particularly militant phase of its history under Napoleon. It would be difficult to argue that France is still militaristic. So what happened to the Arc? Nothing: it's still there. It's still a symbol of national unity, despite the character of the nation having changed drastically. There's no reason to change the monument when the ethics change.

What are you talking about? France has used military force in at least 6 African countries within the last 10 years.

 

[Dementor4]

What are you talking about? France has used military force in at least 6 African countries within the last 10 years.

So?

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

So?

They are still militaristic. They are still imperialistic, they've merely had to adapt to a world where overt imperialism is an unfavorable way to proceed.

 

[Dementor4]

They are still militaristic. They are still imperialistic, they've merely had to adapt to a world where overt imperialism is an unfavorable way to proceed.

The Kremlin then: Soviet Russia explicitly did away with religion, yet it kept the iconic cathedrals.

 

[klopkr]

If they made a few pretty sculptures and set it up so the first person to build it gets those and then once all of the unique ones are built it makes the normal on it would be very cool.

Anyone ever play age of mythology? Each god had their own special super temple. Later they also added special titans that would be similar to cool special ship projects.

 

[Ramiel]

I always assumed that the structure itself was a massive monument and the primary unity-generating symbol of the project, and the museum was just incidental to that.

 

[Retry]

That's fine I suppose, it might make sense to make an art model for every ethic, and that would work for fanatic ethics, but for empires that have 3 different ethics, it would be too many to reasonably model.
How many possible ethics combinations are there, and how can you reasonably reduce that number in a meaningful to reduce the number of models needed to be built?
Well, there 8 ways to choose a fanatic ethic, 3 ways to choose another ethic dichotomy and 2 options on that dichotomy. That's 8*3*2 or 48, but we're not done yet. How many combinations of non-fanatic ethics are there? Well we have 4 ethics dichotomies and 3 to pick, so that's 4 choose 3 which equals 4. Then we have 2 options to pick from each dichotomy so thats 4*2*2*2 or 32. So in total we have 80 possible ethics combinations. How do you reduce that to a more manageable number? 8 seems to be the most reasonable number, but for triple ethic empires how do you decide the dominant ethic? Do you let the player choose the event pops up? and what happens if the empire's ethics change? Does the art installation get blown up or magically change into something else?

1 for each Fanatical ethic, and a "generic" one for a three-ethic empire, maybe 1 or 2 more for Gestalts specifically. Not too hard.

What are you talking about? France has used military force in at least 6 African countries within the last 10 years.

That shows that France isn't pacifistic, it doesn't prove militancy, especially when most of these military operations were part of joint campaigns. You don't see French military presence on a massive scale like the Napoleonic Wars or the World Wars have.

For such a militaristic country, very few of their euros seem to be heading towards their military (currently ~1.8% of their budget, and they only very recently unveiled a plan to put that above the 2% NATO target.).

They are still militaristic. They are still imperialistic, they've merely had to adapt to a world where overt imperialism is an unfavorable way to proceed.

Now that's a stretch, and bordering on political.

 

[zukodark]

Yeah I'd say building a megastructure just meant to be beautiful would be very flavourful and reference things like the Statue of Liberty.

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

Now that's a stretch, and bordering on political.

You're the one who made it political by claiming something political about a modern nation.

1 for each Fanatical ethic, and a "generic" one for a three-ethic empire, maybe 1 or 2 more for Gestalts specifically. Not too hard

As for this, for each fanatic makes sense, but a generic for a 3 ethic empire makes no sense. A 3 ethic empire would require more or at least the same number possibilities that a fanatic empire has. Anyways the larger issue is that even if we stuck with 8 monuments for normal empires and 2 or 3 for gestalt empires, they'd still have to be monuments that are cool and make sense for all empires of those types. It's very unlikely that you could do that without either being too generically lame or too specifically minute. I mean look at the symbols for xenophobe and xenophile, and you'll see what I'm talking about. They're just pentagons with lines and dots. The devs obviously had trouble creating xenophile and xenophobe symbols that are both cool and accurate for all empires. The same thing would happen for any space monuments. I think it's entirely possible that your idea already came up in development and had to be turned down because of these limitations as well as time constraints. Though you should make a suggestion in the suggestion forum if you haven't already.

 

[Paradoxon]

I don't agree with the "let's have multiple models for that megastructure" idea, it's just not something worth the time and cost. But I do agree with the larger idea that some megastructures currently in-game are just bleh.

The Dyson Sphere and Ring Worlds are really the only ones I'd call megastructures, the Sentry Array and the Matter Decompressor not really, but at least they're visually relevant to their function. The Strategic Coordination Center is borderline, and the rest is just disappointing Even simply on the matter of size, I just finished repairing a Mega Art Installation in one my games, it's roughly the same size (dare I say, a bit smaller) than the Star Fortress I have in the same system. When I finish a Dyson Sphere, I'm all "Look on my works, ye mighty", when I finish something like a Science Nexus, I'm "eh, the bonus is nice I guess".

Plus the Matter Decompressor showed us that you didn't really need science to justify megastructures. Why not have the Science Nexus be a huge Stellar Hadron Collider that circles a star ? The Mega Art Installation be a Planetary Sculpture where your empire would literally sculpt something out of a planet, or a swarm of Mega Lenses around a star that creates a system-wide light show ? Basically have Megastructures be something that feel like a massive endeavour that affects the entire system they're in, not just some relatively big station floating around.

I get that it's probably too late to change that, but I feel sad at all the cool potential wasted for those

 

[Losttruppen]

I don't agree with the "let's have multiple models for that megastructure" idea, it's just not something worth the time and cost.

Paradox makes an absurd amount of money from this game, I don't think paying for a few art assets will break the bank or divert resources from the development teams, not to mention the precedent from Ringworlds having distinct visuals for each ship style. I also believe it is worth the cost as why should my reptilian architecture produce the exact same Dyson Sphere as the Plantoids and Mollusks next door. We could use more distinct visual representation of each race beyond portraits and ships, I think the various different textures for the Ecumenopolises are a great thing and we could do with more diversity in that realm. The Science Nexus is also about twice the size of a gas giant, who's to say they don't have several particle accelerators in one of those wings, the one in Europe is pretty small compared to the scales we are looking at in game.

I'm a bit confused what OP wants from the Mega-art Installation other than a name change or different flavour text though. It's a giant reliquary for your species' art and history, built around a monument far more unique than a big bronze lady or a marble archway. It's quite obviously more than a simple museum. In the end though it's just a way to get a big boost of Unity in the late game if you want to focus your alloys into that without spending sprawl on an Ecumenopolis filled with pleasure districts. I'm all for more monuments like the one from killing the Ether Drake, but I don't have much of an issue with the Mega-art Installation other than everyone getting visually the same one.

I think you guys are getting too caught up on the pricing for these things, where if a Dyson Sphere or Ringworld were priced at what they actually entail in materials and effort no one would ever build them (even if ringworlds became useful). Most Megastructures cost the equivalent of a fleet of decently equipped battleships, hardly the same amount of materials to encompass a star or solar system. At the end of the day this is a game that has to be balanced for the economy of a regular playthrough. While it would be cool if they had realistic costs, you wouldn't see them until 1000 years into a playthrough and would be absurdly OP, so while they may be thematically lacking they are balanced for gameplay.

 

[sortulv]

I was expecting a work of art on a stellar scale. Something the people on the planet below them would see in the sky every morning. Something people in other star systems could see and marvel at with a moderately powerful telescope. A sculpture that encircles and includes their star as a part of it, like you've built a setting for a marvelous jewel, but the jewel is a star.

So, rather than a place you can actually visit - you wanted something that could be gazed at by astronomers?
In what manner would this unify the empire?

It is as if you'd replaced the statue of liberty with painting the moon.

A huge centralized location where art and history is displayed makes sense - and helps foster unity, since everyone in the empire would talk of the same cultural expressions, no matter which planet you are from.

 

[Paradoxon]

Paradox makes an absurd amount of money from this game, I don't think paying for a few art assets will break the bank or divert resources from the development teams, not to mention the precedent from Ringworlds having distinct visuals for each ship style. I also believe it is worth the cost as why should my reptilian architecture produce the exact same Dyson Sphere as the Plantoids and Mollusks next door. We could use more distinct visual representation of each race beyond portraits and ships, I think the various different textures for the Ecumenopolises are a great thing and we could do with more diversity in that realm. The Science Nexus is also about twice the size of a gas giant, who's to say they don't have several particle accelerators in one of those wings, the one in Europe is pretty small compared to the scales we are looking at in game.

Megastructures also have different textures depending on shipset, just like Ecumenopolis have different colours and such. I personally think it's enough, especially since it's still rare two see two megastructures of a kind in a same game (maybe less in MP, but that still doesn't weakens my point: it's too situational to justify pouring money and time into it, compared to other, more universally used/seen graphical assets).

And yeah, maybe the Science Nexus is big. Maybe it isn't. Represented scale doesn't mean much in the game (not that it's a bad thing, I don't advocate for "realistic scales" or whatever), and while I'm annoyed at some Megastructures being smaller or the same size than regular stations, bigger Megastructures isn't enough to make it "mega" in my opinion, it really is about the nature of the building. At the end of the day, it's still just a space station in orbit around some random planet. Megastructures ought to have a better visual/conceptual impact than that.

I think you guys are getting too caught up on the pricing for these things

I'm not sure anyone here is debating that, to be honest. The gameplay balance is fine, it's the visual/lore aspect that bugs people. The resource cost is only relevant in that pouring that amount of resources into the project is a bit underwhelming if it's just about the resource bonus. As it stands, some Megastructures could just be a bonus in Government View that I wouldn't see the difference from what we have now. I like to watch my Ring World during quiet times and think "yep, I grinded an entire system to dust and then used the dust to build a massive ring around the star", it's not something that ever happens when I have a Stellar Assembly or a Science Nexus.