Art academies compete with urban centers... and themselves.

[Froonk]

There is a weighting that greatly prefers Fine Art over Services (at 20x) for the Art need, which I think may prevent this in practice from being an issue, but presumably there is some price difference at which pops will still prefer Services to fulfill that need.

I think the ultimate problem here is that there is no difference in "efficiency" at how different goods meet a pop need. The way pop needs work is, they are defined by an amount of money pops of a certain wealth will spend at base prices on goods that fulfill that need (actual spending is of course modified by market prices). Pops of Wealth 30, for example (the first level of wealth with the Art need), will spend a base of £21 (per 10,000 people) of their weekly income on Art-fulfilling goods. If market prices for both Fine Art and Services are at +0% (as unlikely as that it is), they will always spend £21, regardless of whether it is on Fine Art on Services. Services are the "fallback" good for many needs (e.g. Communication and Free Movement), but because Services are just as efficient at meeting these needs (moreso if Services are cheap, which is of course almost always the case!) it is actually preferable for SOL not to produce their alternative goods (e.g. Telephones and Automobiles) if possible (though usually you want Telephones for the bureaucracy boost).

If Services had an "efficiency penalty" for these needs that meant pops had to spend, for example, 1.5x of Services to meet an equivalent of Fine Art (or the other goods mentioned above), then these goods would function as expected (though in the case of Art Academies, the additional Services would would probably still not be useful unless the general Services need from Wealth is increased or the glut of Services from advanced Urban Center production methods is decreased).

I think making it so that services aren't so overabundant should solve this issue.

 

[Secret Master]

and it is far more the inherent interchangeability of services and art that causes that, than the red herring that is services production from the art academies themselves.

This really is my larger point.

The building produces two goods that are interchangeable. So... why does it do that when it could just focus on one? Unless I'm an idiot, I don't think any other building does that.

Wiz says they're on it, so I'm happy.

 

[Fawr]

This really is my larger point.

The building produces two goods that are interchangeable. So... why does it do that when it could just focus on one? Unless I'm an idiot, I don't think any other building does that.

Wiz says they're on it, so I'm happy.

I don't mind producing two goods like that. Think of it as the building producing 5.5 art rather than just 5. Except the last 0.5 can be used to fill other demands (services or transport).

I am looking forward to Wiz's hint that they have noticed its weird that it takes 5 times the capital investment (construction points) to employ 5000 painters compared to 5000 steel workers. I know people complain that doing art is expensive, but big steel mills are too!

 

[Secret Master]

I am looking forward to Wiz's hint that they have noticed its weird that it takes 5 times the capital investment (construction points) to employ 5000 painters compared to 5000 steel workers. I know people complain that doing art is expensive, but big steel mills are too!

I'd complain about that more if the art academy didn't employ folks in nice middle class jobs that pay well (if the academy is actually making money).

But I do think it's weird that art academies don't employ housekeeping staff, administrative assistants, and groundskeepers. But it's the word "academy" that makes me think of a facility in the mold of academia rather than something like "dingy bar where some dude goes to get drunk and inspire himself to make art" kind of place.

 

[RELee]

I'd complain about that more if the art academy didn't employ folks in nice middle class jobs that pay well (if the academy is actually making money).

But I do think it's weird that art academies don't employ housekeeping staff, administrative assistants, and groundskeepers. But it's the word "academy" that makes me think of a facility in the mold of academia rather than something like "dingy bar where some dude goes to get drunk and inspire himself to make art" kind of place.

 

[Secret Master]

View attachment 953461

An amusing meme just for you, buddy.

 

[RELee]

Just my friendly reminder that anytime you post a regular post but in your moderator mode that I can't "like", I will share Raj with you.

 

[Secret Master]

I will share Raj with you.

As long as you don't share this guy with me:

 

[RELee]

No worries. I don't know him. Never saw him before.

 

[Secret Master]

So, if you didn't realize it, in the release version of 1.2, services are no longer produced by art academies.

That works for me.

 

[yurcick]

While this particular case is closed then, I still don't understand how goods substitution works.
In early game whaling countries oil is dirt cheap, and coal can be very expensive.
Why does the population still use a lot of coal for heating?

 

[Xaelyn]

While this particular case is closed then, I still don't understand how goods substitution works.
In early game whaling countries oil is dirt cheap, and coal can be very expensive.
Why does the population still use a lot of coal for heating?

Apparently consumption scales based on goods supply in the market, rather than (or perhaps in addition to) the actual price of the goods. So because your market has negligible quantity of oil next to the quantity of wood and coal, the pops consume a negligible quantity of oil despite of it's low price.

If pops were the only thing consuming the goods, the prices would naturally converge, but because coal and wood are also consumed by industry in vast quantities, the prices do not.

 

[Xaelyn]

so if i completely removed coal and wood from the market, whaling oil still wouldn’t become profitable?

I think they can also use fabric, so no it wouldn't. If you removed all the alternatives, or even just removed any industrial consumption of those materials, whaling oil could become profitable.

 

[Aloraand]

Art Academies have received a number of changes in the final version of 1.2 to make them focused on actually producing art and have a more sensible production compared to workforce.

Did this actually happen? I did not see it in the patch notes.

 

[Notme1]

Did this actually happen? I did not see it in the patch notes.

Yeah, they don't produce services, and make less art now.

 

[Fawr]

Apparently consumption scales based on goods supply in the market, rather than (or perhaps in addition to) the actual price of the goods. So because your market has negligible quantity of oil next to the quantity of wood and coal, the pops consume a negligible quantity of oil despite of it's low price.

If pops were the only thing consuming the goods, the prices would naturally converge, but because coal and wood are also consumed by industry in vast quantities, the prices do not.

The other way to think about this is that first pops buy goods and work out which ones to buy (pop demand for heating is actually quite small so this creates only a few buy orders for lumber and oil).

Then industry buys goods. This increases the demand for wood significantly but not for oil.

Final situation, oil price is low, while wood price is high.

 

[yurcick]

The other way to think about this is that first pops buy goods and work out which ones to buy (pop demand for heating is actually quite small so this creates only a few buy orders for lumber and oil).

Then industry buys goods. This increases the demand for wood significantly but not for oil.

Final situation, oil price is low, while wood price is high.

It's not like that the one who comes first buys something at base price. He buys it at yesterday's equilibrium price. Which leads to him (if he still buys coal) massively overpaying for a unit of heating.

 

[Gort11]

It feels like art academies consume a lot of infrastructure considering how few people they employ and how small their output is.

 

[Secret Master]

It feels like art academies consume a lot of infrastructure considering how few people they employ and how small their output is.

They do.

But if you have tons of demand for fine art, you might as well cater to it. It's cheap to make, and the POPs that make it usually are going pretty good SOL wise.

In this screenshot, which factory do you expand next?

And just what are those art academies up to?

They are turning cheap paper, tools, and electricity into fine art.

It pays well, too.

So, yes, those buildings could employ more people doing other things, but in the above situation, it seems to make sense to just spam out more art academies until I get the price of fine art down further.

 

[Topias]

View attachment 957616

That single radical academic got a chuckle out of me. He's the real protagonist, here.