Art academies compete with urban centers... and themselves.

[Secret Master]

I've been working on funneling labor into Hollywood to bring down art prices when SOL is high enough in my countries. And while I have certainly turned Disney into an engine of imperialism (since art academies with film PMs are the largest number of factories in my country), but I've realized that there is something fundamentally... weird about how art academies function.

So, the film PM (and the previous one to a lesser extent) generates both art and services. We all know this. We also all know that services tend to be overproduced by urban centers. But that's okay. Having two different buildings compete with each other is fine.

But as I was trying to optimize art academies, I realized that there's a reason the higher PMs are problematic in the late game.

Fine art fulfills the art need from SOL 30-99. And the need for art can be satisfied by either fine art or services. Fine art is much more efficient at meeting that need than services. Fair enough. Plenty of needs in the game can be fulfilled by substitution.

But... if services substitutes for fine art, then art academies are spamming two goods that actually step on each others' toes, meaning that in the following situation, the art academy is killing its own productivity indirectly:

The 25k services in this specific academy are roughly equal to 4.25k fine art. But since services are generally overproduced, these extra services are not really helping that academy. That's fine in one sense; you can just swap to a different PM.

But I want to point out that I can't think of another building in the game that produces two different goods that fulfill the exact same needs category without being some kind of secondary or optional production method. So, the art academy is competing with urban centers, but it's also competing with itself when using certain PMs. The demand for fine art is nerfed by cheap services, which are provided by the same building as fine art.

I'm not sure this is a sensible approach. But I'm not sure if services should just be removed from art academies or if the substitution between art and services should be changed so that the services produced by art academies is not hurting the fine art.

 

[circadianwolf]

There is a weighting that greatly prefers Fine Art over Services (at 20x) for the Art need, which I think may prevent this in practice from being an issue, but presumably there is some price difference at which pops will still prefer Services to fulfill that need.

I think the ultimate problem here is that there is no difference in "efficiency" at how different goods meet a pop need. The way pop needs work is, they are defined by an amount of money pops of a certain wealth will spend at base prices on goods that fulfill that need (actual spending is of course modified by market prices). Pops of Wealth 30, for example (the first level of wealth with the Art need), will spend a base of £21 (per 10,000 people) of their weekly income on Art-fulfilling goods. If market prices for both Fine Art and Services are at +0% (as unlikely as that it is), they will always spend £21, regardless of whether it is on Fine Art on Services. Services are the "fallback" good for many needs (e.g. Communication and Free Movement), but because Services are just as efficient at meeting these needs (moreso if Services are cheap, which is of course almost always the case!) it is actually preferable for SOL not to produce their alternative goods (e.g. Telephones and Automobiles) if possible (though usually you want Telephones for the bureaucracy boost).

If Services had an "efficiency penalty" for these needs that meant pops had to spend, for example, 1.5x of Services to meet an equivalent of Fine Art (or the other goods mentioned above), then these goods would function as expected (though in the case of Art Academies, the additional Services would would probably still not be useful unless the general Services need from Wealth is increased or the glut of Services from advanced Urban Center production methods is decreased).

 

[yurcick]

There is a weighting that greatly prefers Fine Art over Services (at 20x) for the Art need, which I think may prevent this in practice from being an issue, but presumably there is some price difference at which pops will still prefer Services to fulfill that need.

I think the ultimate problem here is that there is no difference in "efficiency" at how different goods meet a pop need. The way pop needs work is, they are defined by an amount of money pops of a certain wealth will spend at base prices on goods that fulfill that need (actual spending is of course modified by market prices). Pops of Wealth 30, for example (the first level of wealth with the Art need), will spend a base of £21 (per 10,000 people) of their weekly income on Art-fulfilling goods. If market prices for both Fine Art and Services are at +0% (as unlikely as that it is), they will always spend £21, regardless of whether it is on Fine Art on Services. Services are the "fallback" good for many needs (e.g. Communication and Free Movement), but because Services are just as efficient at meeting these needs (moreso if Services are cheap, which is of course almost always the case!) it is actually preferable for SOL not to produce their alternative goods (e.g. Telephones and Automobiles) if possible (though usually you want Telephones for the bureaucracy boost).

If Services had an "efficiency penalty" for these needs that meant pops had to spend, for example, 1.5x of Services to meet an equivalent of Fine Art (or the other goods mentioned above), then these goods would function as expected (though in the case of Art Academies, the additional Services would would probably still not be useful unless the general Services need from Wealth is increased or the glut of Services from advanced Urban Center production methods is decreased).

Wait, does this really work this way?
I was sure there already is a penalty you describe, that's just logical.

 

[Secret Master]

I think the ultimate problem here is that there is no difference in "efficiency" at how different goods meet a pop need.

Isn't that the point of having fine art meet 6.66 need compared to services?

If fine art didn't have that efficiency, I'd be selling hardly any fine art due to how cheap services are. I know their base prices are different as well, but still. There isn't a 1:1 ratio of services to fine art.

 

[FranklyJustNess]

What is interesting is that services have a weight of 0.05x compared to 1x for fine art for the Art need, but there's no minimal or maximal percentages. For example with luxury drinks (coffee/tea/wine) or basic intoxicants (opium/tobacco/liquor) you can only satisfy 60% of the need with a single good, or with luxuary items (fancy clothes/chairs, radios and porcelain) all outside radios are an expected minimum of satisfying at least 5% of the need (with 40% max).

Since there's no such mechanic for art, all the art need can be satisfied with just services and you never need a single art academy, especially if services are overproduced. Now you might still want it, but you don't need to ever build one to satisfy all the needs of your pops.

 

[ac566]

Isn't that the point of having fine art meet 6.66 need compared to services?

If fine art didn't have that efficiency, I'd be selling hardly any fine art due to how cheap services are. I know their base prices are different as well, but still. There isn't a 1:1 ratio of services to fine art.

It works as he said, but the luxury options are more highly weighted to be selected. The exception to this is automobiles which have the same weighting as transportation (but both are higher weight than services).

What is interesting is that services have a weight of 0.05x compared to 1x for fine art for the Art need, but there's no minimal or maximal percentages. For example with luxury drinks (coffee/tea/wine) or basic intoxicants (opium/tobacco/liquor) you can only satisfy 60% of the need with a single good, or with luxuary items (fancy clothes/chairs, radios and porcelain) all outside radios are an expected minimum of satisfying at least 5% of the need (with 40% max).

Since there's no such mechanic for art, all the art need can be satisfied with just services and you never need a single art academy, especially if services are overproduced. Now you might still want it, but you don't need to ever build one to satisfy all the needs of your pops.

Not sure about 1.1 but in 1.2 services have a maximum weight of 0.4 (compared to base of 0.05) which actually seems to be the wrong number. Based on all the other values in this file and the comment next to it, this value should be 0.2 and thus would only be able to satisfy 80% of buy orders.



If you want to fix services spam for yourself change this line in the 00_defines.txt file (or create mod for it):

NEconomy = {

#... Stufff

URBANIZATION_PER_BUILDING = 200 # Original: 100

#... Stuff

}

This reduces the spawning of urban centers by half and actually makes it viable to use the most advanced PMs

 

[BANDIT???]

seems like a viable way to deal with resource scarcity for urban center pms

 

[Fawr]

Isn't that the point of having fine art meet 6.66 need compared to services?

If fine art didn't have that efficiency, I'd be selling hardly any fine art due to how cheap services are. I know their base prices are different as well, but still. There isn't a 1:1 ratio of services to fine art.

The 6.66 you see is the ratio between the base prices of the different goods.

The 20x factor is hidden from the in-game UI. Its effect is what keeps art prices high while service prices are low. Without that pops would move their demand to the cheaper good until the prices equalised.

What is interesting is that services have a weight of 0.05x compared to 1x for fine art for the Art need, but there's no minimal or maximal percentages. For example with luxury drinks (coffee/tea/wine) or basic intoxicants (opium/tobacco/liquor) you can only satisfy 60% of the need with a single good, or with luxuary items (fancy clothes/chairs, radios and porcelain) all outside radios are an expected minimum of satisfying at least 5% of the need (with 40% max).

Since there's no such mechanic for art, all the art need can be satisfied with just services and you never need a single art academy, especially if services are overproduced. Now you might still want it, but you don't need to ever build one to satisfy all the needs of your pops.

As you have pointed out its interesting that there are two different mechanisms to drive pops to consume a bit of both types of goods. With the maximum spend % the prices of both goods will tend to equalise unless that maximum comes into play. When the maximum comes into play then the prices multipliers might be different. In contrast with the weight of 0.05 one good will always have a higher price multiplier than the other good.

 

[Xaelyn]

All buildings compete with themselves by selling the same goods as themselves. Whether the building produces 50 pounds worth of art and 50 pounds of services, or 100 pounds of art, the prices and profit will normalize to the same point, precisely because the goods are interchangeable. The extra services are not killing the buildings productivity any more than extra output on any building PM kills its productivity, though as with many PM's it's entirely possible that the extra cost of the PM is not worth the increased return.

 

[$ilent_$trider]

I guess Art Academies with Film PM also produce Services to exemplify the masses also consuming Arts and not only the wealthy. But wouldn’t be better if somehow advanced PMs reduced the SoL threshold of consumption? That way you would not have this sort of competing goods with itself.

 

[Lord Canterbury]

All buildings compete with themselves by selling the same goods as themselves. Whether the building produces 50 pounds worth of art and 50 pounds of services, or 100 pounds of art, the prices and profit will normalize to the same point, precisely because the goods are interchangeable. The extra services are not killing the buildings productivity any more than extra output on any building PM kills its productivity, though as with many PM's it's entirely possible that the extra cost of the PM is not worth the increased return.

Yup... more demand, of any good that fills a particular need is going to drive now prices.
What film does do is make Art Academies much more flexible by allowing them to cater to poor pops as well as wealthy pops.

 

[BANDIT???]

I guess Art Academies with Film PM also produce Services to exemplify the masses also consuming Arts and not only the wealthy. But wouldn’t be better if somehow advanced PMs reduced the SoL threshold of consumption? That way you would not have this sort of competing goods with itself.

why is photography art counting as services for <30 sol anyway?

art is art; and buying a picture of a mountain from a noname artist for a few bucks is just as much art as having the very same mountain drawn by a fancy must-know and must-have virtuoso

same for motion-picture theater: whether you watch it on tv or see the actors on stage does not make any relevant difference apart for socioeconomic implications. mass production of art was a huge step towards democratization of the civilian society, yet it’s not portrayed appropriately ingame

 

[Wizzington]

Art Academies have received a number of changes in the final version of 1.2 to make them focused on actually producing art and have a more sensible production compared to workforce.

 

[Secret Master]

The 20x factor is hidden from the in-game UI.

So that 20x has nothing to do with the 6.66. Now I understand. I thought the two were related somehow.

All buildings compete with themselves by selling the same goods as themselves.

Yes, I do understand that. If I build 10 steel factories, building the 11th steel factory does place it "in competition" with the others.

But I can't think of a single building in the game that produces two or more output goods (without a secondary production method) where the two goods directly compete with each other in the same need category.

Wheat farms can produce wine, but wine and wheat are completely different goods that meet different needs. Livestock ranches produce fertilizer, fabric, and meat, but none of those goods are meeting the same needs. In fact, telling POPs to eat the fertilizer from livestock ranches is, umm, the same as telling someone to do something I'm not allowed to say around here. War machine factories produce planes and tanks, but planes and tanks meet different needs from different parts of the barracks.

It's weird to me that I'm sitting there looking at an art academy and thinking to myself "I should just stop making films because the extra services being produced are just indirectly driving down demand for the fine art."

Perhaps the services should be a secondary PM?

What film does do is make Art Academies much more flexible by allowing them to cater to poor pops as well as wealthy pops.

I can see that design philosophy. But I think it makes more sense to make it be a secondary PM. If I don't need fruit and sugar, I can turn off orchards on my farms. If I don't need services, I want to turn them off on the art academies.

Since there's no such mechanic for art, all the art need can be satisfied with just services and you never need a single art academy, especially if services are overproduced. Now you might still want it, but you don't need to ever build one to satisfy all the needs of your pops.

True story:

I used to never bother building art academies and would demolish existing ones. Since services were so ubiquitous, I felt that the academies were useless. Why bother competing with the 500k services from my urban centers?

I changed my mind when I realized how employment worked on them. They just have academic jobs. So, art academies are basically guaranteed middle class employment. And they are fairly efficient at producing art for number of POPs employed. This makes those POPs fairly wealthy once you get enough throughput in place.

So, in the game I grabbed those screenshots from, art academies are the #1 constructed building in my country. Urban centers beat them out, but only by virtue of the fact that they automatically show up as you build stuff.

 

[Sbrubbles]

The 6.66 you see is the ratio between the base prices of the different goods.

The 20x factor is hidden from the in-game UI.

So PoPs will consume art as long as it's less than 20x the price of services? Is that the way to interpret this?

I thought (looking at the tooltip) that 6.66 was the point at which PoPs would switch, not at the hidden 20x. Wild.

Furthermore, what does 6.66 actually impact? Is 6.66 actually used somewhere?

 

[GrafKeks]

But... if services substitutes for fine art, then art academies are spamming two goods that actually step on each others' toes, meaning that in the following situation, the art academy is killing its own productivity indirectly: (...)

They're currently a huge it depends as unfortunately that situation is IMO quite close to the mean. Maybe Service need should be increased or service should be capable of substituting everything to have artisans kind of back in the game.

 

[circadianwolf]

So PoPs will consume art as long as it's less than 20x the price of services? Is that the way to interpret this?

I thought (looking at the tooltip) that 6.66 was the point at which PoPs would switch, not at the hidden 20x. Wild.

Furthermore, what does 6.66 actually impact? Is 6.66 actually used somewhere?

The 6.66x means that 1 unit of Fine Art can meet the same amount of Art need as 6.66 units of Services. That's because the base price of Fine Art (200) is 6.66x the base price of Services (30) - at +0% market price for both, the cost of 1 Fine Art = the cost of 6.66 Services. So from the standpoint of production, Fine Art is "better" than services at fulfilling the Art need, in that you need less units of Fine Art. However, from the standpoint of pops, fulfilling the need costs the same amount of money either way (assuming balanced market prices).

The 20x is a weight factor on, when multiple goods can supply a need, how much pops will buy of one good versus another. I'm not sure if we know how the actual calculation works here, but most things like this in the game work as a straight ratio - if that's the case here, then at +0% market cost, pops would purchase around 6.66 Services for every 20 Fine Art purchased toward their Art need (the 1:20 ratio, modified by the base price difference). This ratio is presumably modified by difference in market cost - so if Fine Art costs +50% and Services cost -50%, maybe pops will move to a 1:10 ratio? Or some other ratio, at least. You could probably empirically test this and work backwards from relative price & buy orders to figure out the actual calculation.

For some needs, there are also "min ratios" and "max ratios" which put a set floor/ceiling on this independent of the weight and price differences (e.g. for the luxury need, the different luxury goods each have a max ratio of 40%, so you always need at least 3 different luxury goods supplied to meet pop luxury needs). There's no min or max applied to goods for Art though, so that doesn't matter here. You could build no art academies and fully meet your pops' desire for Art as long as there were sufficient Services.

 

[Fawr]

The 20x is a weight factor on, when multiple goods can supply a need, how much pops will buy of one good versus another. I'm not sure if we know how the actual calculation works here, but most things like this in the game work as a straight ratio - if that's the case here, then at +0% market cost, pops would purchase around 6.66 Services for every 20 Fine Art purchased toward their Art need (the 1:20 ratio, modified by the base price difference). This ratio is presumably modified by difference in market cost - so if Fine Art costs +50% and Services cost -50%, maybe pops will move to a 1:10 ratio? Or some other ratio, at least. You could probably empirically test this and work backwards from relative price & buy orders to figure out the actual calculation.

I built a mod to help simplify things (and get to the bottom of some of these formula).

Let's start when there aren't any special modifiers. In that case the pops will slowly change their demand to satisfy their needs in the most cost effective way. That means that if you produce 5 of good A and 10 of good B then the pops will eventually demand twice as much of good B. When you get to this point it makes the price modifiers in the market for both goods the same (this is much more complicated if the goods are also used by buildings, and not just by pops, and they don't take consumption taxes into account).

It's still hard to get to the real formula for when the 20x weight factor (actually weights of 0.05 vs 1) applies because I keep running into +75% or -75% prices. When using 2 goods with factors of 0.5 and 1 I surprisingly saw no effect on demand (50% of money for a need went on each good). With 2 goods and factors of 0.25 and 1 I saw pops spending 61.5% of their money on one good and 38.4% on the other). Unsure what formula comes out of that though!

 

[Secret Master]

(and get to the bottom of some of these formula)

Until then, I'm just going to continue to find ways to implement labor saving PMs without invoking a Malthusian apocalypse while feeding art to the rich.

 

[Xaelyn]

Yes, I do understand that. If I build 10 steel factories, building the 11th steel factory does place it "in competition" with the others.

But I can't think of a single building in the game that produces two or more output goods (without a secondary production method) where the two goods directly compete with each other in the same need category.

Wheat farms can produce wine, but wine and wheat are completely different goods that meet different needs. Livestock ranches produce fertilizer, fabric, and meat, but none of those goods are meeting the same needs. In fact, telling POPs to eat the fertilizer from livestock ranches is, umm, the same as telling someone to do something I'm not allowed to say around here. War machine factories produce planes and tanks, but planes and tanks meet different needs from different parts of the barracks.

It's weird to me that I'm sitting there looking at an art academy and thinking to myself "I should just stop making films because the extra services being produced are just indirectly driving down demand for the fine art."

Perhaps the services should be a secondary PM?

I think is the services production from from urban centers that hurts your art academies, and it is far more the inherent interchangeability of services and art that causes that, than the red herring that is services production from the art academies themselves.

That said, goods substitution is wack and I have no idea how it actually works, like pops never using oil for heating even when it is dirt cheap early on, despite it having the same weight as the other heating goods. My pops are currently way overpaying for art instead of using the much cheaper services, which is presumably the result of the higher weight for art consumption, which does make the services from art academies inherently less valuable than would be if they were truly interchangeable, but it also means that the services aren't really competing with the art nearly as much as you would think, and therefore the services production from art academies isn't hurting the art price as much as you think either.