Army tactics in 2.0 Marius will they change? How?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Todie

Doer of things and stuff in the videogame
38 Badges
Mar 9, 2018
1.963
2.090
www.twitch.tv
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
I haven't posted a new thread here in some months, and ill keep this brief.

If I'm not mistaken, there has been no mention of army tactics in the 2.0 dev diaries - nor any of the teasers (?).

.. yet, the Rock Paper Scissors nature of the tactics system is arguably overdue for some manner of rework in an update that is to partially be themed around warfare.

We know that a lot of other things concerning war and battle are changing, some will probably affect tactics indirectly even if tactics themselves would stay “the same”; the cohort composition of levies will not be easily changed and they will always be led by governors, meaning it will become more circumstantial to be able to “switch” tactics after battle has been joined by sending in a general with higher martial. (Legions could still allow that though?).

... so what do you think? should tactics remain as-is? Or be removed? Simplified? Fleshed out? Replaced by something more intricate?

Personally, there are many changes I’d be ok with. Mostly I’d like to see some kind of move away from the gimmicky nature of instant tactic-swaps to counter - where the own compositions affinity for a tactic is a by-far secondary consideration to the matter of being countered or countering.

I think a lot of potential depth to combat / warfare gameplay can be built into a tactics system - but seeing how big 2.0 already seems to be in so many ways, I would be quite content with some discrete changes for now.
 
Last edited:
  • 9Like
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:

CaptinObvious

Centurion
61 Badges
Sep 28, 2017
1.283
5.980
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • March of the Eagles
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Age of Wonders III
Battles, in general, seem to have been left untouched, minus a massive shrink to CW; which is bizarre for the *war* update

and before you start saying that war involves more than just battles...logistics, sieges, forts, and navies also seem untouched, so my point still stands for a war update, it sure has left the nitty-gritty details of warfare untouched
 
  • 6
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Synen

First Lieutenant
34 Badges
Apr 15, 2016
270
610
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
Battles, in general, seem to have been left untouched, minus a massive shrink to CW; which is bizarre for the *war* update

and before you start saying that war involves more than just battles...logistics, sieges, forts, and navies also seem untouched, so my point still stands for a war update, it sure has left the nitty-gritty details of warfare untouched

I came to the same conclusion a couple of day's ago. I just hope that they do a new war update at some point to flesh it out more. Having said that 2.0 looks good despite this.
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:

Iosue Yu

Lt. General
47 Badges
Apr 22, 2018
1.324
2.275
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Surviving Mars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
Well this is Marius Update. So it's about military organisations. It's not the Martian update. (Joke)
 

Jiben

Colonel
52 Badges
Jul 1, 2015
846
3.001
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
and before you start saying that war involves more than just battles...logistics, sieges, forts, and navies also seem untouched

Well there will be some kind of fort rebalance with that fort soft limit they revealed in december, we will also get a engineer unit for sieges and that building that reduces combat width. Agreed on the rest.
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:

Todie

Doer of things and stuff in the videogame
38 Badges
Mar 9, 2018
1.963
2.090
www.twitch.tv
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
I just hope that they do a new war update at some point to flesh it out more. Having said that 2.0 looks good despite this.

Well, any tactics-rework hasn’t been mentioned yet. One way or the other. The only clue we have to indicate it may not be coming is that it wasn't mentioned even under the topic “important balance changes”.

... they may well have something cooking for tactics that is not yet merged into their main build. Without a release date announced, they could land on taking another month to add it in while tuning various other changes...
 
Last edited:
  • 4Like
Reactions:

Ffc

Galactic Emperor
68 Badges
Jan 27, 2016
633
1.707
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
I never liked the tactical system as it is

Precisely, I never liked the fact that the best way to win is sending your army stacks per order of martial skill and choosing a tactic to counter the ennemi tactic with your best general
 
  • 7
Reactions:

Ffc

Galactic Emperor
68 Badges
Jan 27, 2016
633
1.707
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
xd, it is not like that worked in real life? of course, there are more variables in the game, like your army and enemy army composition, your "food" in the army, if it is viable to attack the enemy or wait to them to separate far away, etc.

I think you didn't understand what I said
I just talking about tactics

The optimal play in Imperator:Rome is sending a shitty stack (not that shitty because it has to survive some time) just to know what tactic is using the ennemy
Once they are stuck in the battle, they can't change (except if it's a player and the person does the same thing than you)

Then you clic on your main army (with the best General), you choose a tactic which counter the ennemy tactic (you don't really care about your composition), you enter the battle, so it changes to this tactic, GG, you won the Rock, paper, scissor

I'm not sure it worked like that in real life, changing tactic in the middle of the battle but even if it does, I don't think it's very fun
 
  • 5
Reactions:

manager2525

Colonel
42 Badges
Oct 27, 2012
802
1.236
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
I believe that the tactics' model we have right now is far from perfect but imho there are more pressing issues concerning warfare. These are centred around how AI handles (or better doesn't know how to handle) warfare.
1) Drilling. From what I understand AI hardly even drills. Also it is very easy for the player to keep a smallish army and drill 24/7. Down the line this will make the player marche around with spacelegioners and walk through the AI armies like cutting into butter (mid and late game). I am not going to even mentioned how unrealistic it is for a minor country to have excellent military traditions because it had an army of 1.000 light infantry drilling 24/7 while the armies of its neighbouring empire haven't learned to use their swords right.
2) Using mercenaries. Mostly AI related and as we know being looked at for the 2.0 update. Hopefully no more endless stacks of mercenaries (1.4 anyone) or only use from the human player.
3) AI army composition. AI should learn to make more well balanced armies. This will probably be half solved with the levies having predefined composition. Let's see how legions will created.
4) AI fort placing. Again AI really doesn't know were to put forts (Syracuse never building a fort in Messena anyone).
 
  • 4
Reactions:

Chehabian

Second Lieutenant
59 Badges
Jan 16, 2021
150
455
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
Is it odd that I find the Imperator combat system to be more intuitive than CK3?

I think my main issue is not necessarily about tactics/flanking/unit position but rather the fact that there is no cultural diversity.

Is it weird to anyone else that everybody just gets bland light infantry/heavy infantry/light cav/heavy cav?
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Herennius

Optimat
32 Badges
Mar 25, 2012
2.929
5.504
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pride of Nations
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
I would like to see some shameless copying from HoI4 here :) Let the Generals pick the tactics based on skill/traits/available units/enemy units and allow them to dynamically change them during the battle. I never really enjoyed the needed manual decision here.
 
  • 5Like
  • 3
Reactions:

Rabid

Field Marshal
40 Badges
Jan 4, 2008
4.047
3.417
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
Is it weird to anyone else that everybody just gets bland light infantry/heavy infantry/light cav/heavy cav?
2.0 will address that somewhat via cultural modifiers to levies and significant adjustments to military traditions (unfortunately we've barely seen these but the ones that have been shown are significant).

If you want to see totally unique units that's not happening (and it's not something that I personally care for) but in real terms army composition and effectiveness will be impacted by culture, perhaps very significantly so.

The tactics system really needs some work though. My personal preference for a very quick fix would be to make tactics locked as soon as combat starts, and changing tactics causes a loss of morale (by let's say something like 1/2 to 1/3). Then disallow using tactics which you army has very low affinity for. Thus encouraging you to have flexible armies and to not change tactics frequently.
 
Last edited:
  • 3
Reactions:

Iosue Yu

Lt. General
47 Badges
Apr 22, 2018
1.324
2.275
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Surviving Mars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
I believe that the tactics' model we have right now is far from perfect but imho there are more pressing issues concerning warfare. These are centred around how AI handles (or better doesn't know how to handle) warfare.
1) Drilling. From what I understand AI hardly even drills. Also it is very easy for the player to keep a smallish army and drill 24/7. Down the line this will make the player marche around with spacelegioners and walk through the AI armies like cutting into butter (mid and late game). I am not going to even mentioned how unrealistic it is for a minor country to have excellent military traditions because it had an army of 1.000 light infantry drilling 24/7 while the armies of its neighbouring empire haven't learned to use their swords right.
2) Using mercenaries. Mostly AI related and as we know being looked at for the 2.0 update. Hopefully no more endless stacks of mercenaries (1.4 anyone) or only use from the human player.
3) AI army composition. AI should learn to make more well balanced armies. This will probably be half solved with the levies having predefined composition. Let's see how legions will created.
4) AI fort placing. Again AI really doesn't know were to put forts (Syracuse never building a fort in Messena anyone).
I have a theory of AI not building forts is due to not being able to tear down Slave Estates, Barracks, Farms and Mines. So with the 2.0 update, each location now allowing 2 buildings, it is hopeful that we see an improvement.
 

Chehabian

Second Lieutenant
59 Badges
Jan 16, 2021
150
455
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
2.0 will address that somewhat via cultural modifiers to levies and significant adjustments to military traditions (unfortunately we've barely seen these but the ones that have been shown are significant).

If you want to see totally unique units that's not happening (and it's not something that I personally care for) but in real terms army composition and effectiveness will be impacted by culture, perhaps very significantly so.

The tactics system really needs some work though. My personal preference for a very quick fix would be to make tactics locked as soon as combat starts, and changing tactics causes a loss of morale (by let's say something like 1/2 to 1/3). Then disallow using tactics which you army has very low affinity for. Thus encouraging you to have flexible armies and to not change tactics frequently.

I understand insofar as unit class is concerned that we should keep these things pretty consistent.

But for horse archers, why not refer to them as Scythian Riders or whatever their terminology was for that specific cultural group?
Or Hoplites, etc. The modifiers can remain as they are for that culture group as you mentioned which is coming in 2.0.

But I don't see the reason why we can't have this, it's not that hard to implement and again insofar as immersion goes I think it would help to make these factions and cultures seem a lot less monolithic.
 

Todie

Doer of things and stuff in the videogame
38 Badges
Mar 9, 2018
1.963
2.090
www.twitch.tv
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
I understand insofar as unit class is concerned that we should keep these things pretty consistent.

But for horse archers, why not refer to them as Scythian Riders or whatever their terminology was for that specific cultural group?
Or Hoplites, etc. The modifiers can remain as they are for that culture group as you mentioned which is coming in 2.0.

But I don't see the reason why we can't have this, it's not that hard to implement and again insofar as immersion goes I think it would help to make these factions and cultures seem a lot less monolithic.

This is pretty much what they did with ships, and its horribly confusing becasue the terms are not used with sifficent clearity throuhgout different UI-elemnts and contexts. (and im not even talking about localization - idk how that interacts)

... granted, ship-types are by nature harder to tell apart, but its still not a path worth going down IMO, at least not without dedicated art for these variations.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Rabid

Field Marshal
40 Badges
Jan 4, 2008
4.047
3.417
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
As Todie points out, culture-specific naming is nice to have but it needs to be very well implemented into the UI so that it's totally unambiguous what type of unit you're looking at.

If they can do this while making it entirely clear that this unit is heavy infantry and that one is light infantry, then go for it.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

SpawnRaider

Sergeant
50 Badges
May 31, 2010
66
110
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
Yes, it's interesting that so far an update centered around has had minimal changes to warfare. We've had some combat width changes for naval warfare? Maybe land too for some terrains? More passes have been added. There are engineers now for sieges as well and I think navies can have more impact on coastal sieges.

Tactics appear to be unchanged. It's a lazy system and should honestly be replaced by the HOI system where the general chooses tactics appropriate for the situation. Better generals would naturally be better at this and more valuable. Honestly I usually just ignore tactics because I can't be assed to change it every minute (especially when I play a horde tribe where I continuously create new hordes that default to skirmish?) I tend to overhwlem the weak AI whether i bother with tactics or not.

Logistics is unchanged. I know adding a logistical system would be hard but this alone would add more depth than anything else. Donkeys are on a preliminary level and don't represent the vulnerability of baggage trains and how crucial they were. When armies moved around on campaign, the larger ones were often accompanied by extensive baggage trains which had food, soldiers' families, merchants, servicemen, etc.. There's been lots of great suggestions thrown around. Players have asked for interactable trade routes on the map where armies could disrupt them. Likewise you could have baggage trains appear on the map and be raidable. Maybe donkeys shouldn't be attachable directly to an army? Just theorycrafting here.

I really hope we're not nearing the end of changes for 2.0 because so far we've had mostly wonders, UI,technology, and focus trees. Levies are nice and all but in practice, they just take away control from the players and don't leave any new mechanics in place.
 
  • 3
  • 3
Reactions:

Todie

Doer of things and stuff in the videogame
38 Badges
Mar 9, 2018
1.963
2.090
www.twitch.tv
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
Yes, it's interesting that so far an update centered around has had minimal changes to warfare. We've had some combat width changes for naval warfare? Maybe land too for some terrains? More passes have been added. There are engineers now for sieges as well and I think navies can have more impact on coastal sieges.

Tactics appear to be unchanged. It's a lazy system and should honestly be replaced by the HOI system where the general chooses tactics appropriate for the situation. Better generals would naturally be better at this and more valuable. Honestly I usually just ignore tactics because I can't be assed to change it every minute (especially when I play a horde tribe where I continuously create new hordes that default to skirmish?) I tend to overhwlem the weak AI whether i bother with tactics or not.

Logistics is unchanged. I know adding a logistical system would be hard but this alone would add more depth than anything else. Donkeys are on a preliminary level and don't represent the vulnerability of baggage trains and how crucial they were. When armies moved around on campaign, the larger ones were often accompanied by extensive baggage trains which had food, soldiers' families, merchants, servicemen, etc.. There's been lots of great suggestions thrown around. Players have asked for interactable trade routes on the map where armies could disrupt them. Likewise you could have baggage trains appear on the map and be raidable. Maybe donkeys shouldn't be attachable directly to an army? Just theorycrafting here.

I really hope we're not nearing the end of changes for 2.0 because so far we've had mostly wonders, UI,technology, and focus trees. Levies are nice and all but in practice, they just take away control from the players and don't leave any new mechanics in place.


Its too soon to actually proclaim these areas as unchanged or as seeing minimal changes. we've just not been told one way or the other, and without any hint of a release date, we can't really glean what will or won't be changed - maybe the patch won't be out for another few months, and these matters are being worked on...

I'm all for discussing logistics but would advise discussing that in the recent attrition thread instead.

Tactics appear to be unchanged. It's a lazy system and should honestly be replaced by the HOI system where the general chooses tactics appropriate for the situation. Better generals would naturally be better at this and more valuable. Honestly I usually just ignore tactics because I can't be assed to change it every minute (especially when I play a horde tribe where I continuously create new hordes that default to skirmish?) I tend to overhwlem the weak AI whether i bother with tactics or not

I think things akin to this have been suggested/discussed several times before, (tho not by devs openly).

I don't know that I find it reasonable to expect the level of depth and detail for IR that goes into the HOI tactics, but some similar concepts could be used in some of the ways you mention.


For reference, I'm not sure if the tactics system has been touched on publicly by devs at all since March 2019 (pre-release). The system was apparently changed since early testing with changes pioneered by Groogy (not working on IR) and improved by @Chaingun Imperator - Development Diary - 25th of March 2019 | Paradox Interactive Forums (paradoxplaza.com)
While the system as described in the diary from in October created interesting situations where you are rewarded from trying to predict your opponent's choice of tactics, there were some issues we had with it.

This choice was in many cases quite random since it did not interact with the army composition at all. Having separate sets of offensive and defensive tactics also turned out to be a lot to keep in mind at all times.
The tactics system also overlapped with some of the unique unit abilities from the Military Tradition trees, which were also generally what one would expect to find under the umbrella of Combat Tactics.

For these reasons we have implemented a number of changes to the Tactics system (changes pioneered by @Groogy ).

  1. There are no longer both defensive and offensive tactics, instead you pick one for your army and it will apply whether you are the attacker or defender.
  2. While the bonus or penalty tactics provide is still dependent on how well they work against the tactic chosen by the opposing side, their efficiency is now dependent on the composition of your army.
  3. The unique stances from Military Traditions have now been reworked into Combat Tactics that you unlock, with slightly higher bonuses and different matchings than the base ones (but like all tactics they have to be matched with one that is vulnerable to have an effect).

Reading this and considering tactics have always been directly interactive in this game, It might be desirable to keep an option to change stance on the army, similarly as you can with fleets, but I think the context of warfare in IR 2.x will be rich enough that this interactivity can be moved away from attempts to counter the opponent like paper counters rock to more dynamic considerations like defensive/offensive/balanced with effects to damage taken/given and +/-1 width on both sides - while letting any further details of the tactical interaction in battle flow procedurally from various involved parameters like they do in HOI and even CK2-3.

Last I checked, Chaingun wasn't officially on the IR dev team anymore but still working on it, as a contractor.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Tomikek

Corporal
5 Badges
Jul 24, 2020
44
278
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
I just want to point out how bad all the propositions above really are and that I'm glad that the current system is as it is! I say we stop all these reactionary nonsense, this current system is definitely better than ck2 and hoi4 tactics system that no one even ever keeps tracks of in battle. #keeptheplayerincommand #ImbetterthanthestupidAI !!!
 
Last edited:
  • 4Like
  • 3
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions: