Army maintenance

[Castellon]

Originally posted by BarristerBoy
The problem, really, is that you can increase your moral to max within a month. It should take much longer for the effects of moving from 50% to 100% maintenance to be felt, not just a couple of weeks.

Takes longer to reach full morale. Check your save game, do not go by what the ingame tool tip says.

 

[Castellon]

Originally posted by DrGrieve
At peace I leave it at 50%

then at war I set it to 100%

OR at least I used to

I now leave the slider at 50% unless I am about to assault or are fighting lots of rebels and I'm at low tech

I find I do not need full morale if you are simply "at war" fighting normal troops. You need more troops not more moral.

This goes in hand in hand with my strategy of not shifting DP sliders with the idea of increasing moral.

IMHO your morale level is secondary to winning the war (which is completely different to winning the battle).

So in summary lose a few extra battles because your morale is low, win the war because you have more troops.

As I mentioned in the other thread:
I never lowered my maintenance until I did my morale FAQ and now I often leave it at the lowest point. A real eye opener when you look at the savings vs the loss of morale.

 

[Castellon]

Originally posted by ConcordantNexus
Isn't that risky though when you have high revolt risk (digesting newly conquered territory?) - seems to me that when I had pay at 50% I actually ended up losing to rebels in areas where I had groups of soldiers (usually 10K cavalry) waiting to pacify any trouble....

I usually have no trouble with 10k cal. Keep your land tech low so you get max shock. Occasionaly I must send in a group from a neibouring province. You may lose the battle but you will not lose many troops and the other army has never lost.

 

[Castellon]

Originally posted by Nikolai II
In the earliest parts of the game 100% support has it's place, but as said, after TL 14-18 or so it is really only useful if you want to assault or are in deep dodo (just started BB-wars or so)

Actually on the lower levels the morale hit is minimal. In fact even with the maintenance slider to minimum you still get an increase in morale. Check the Morale FAQ link in my sig for details.

 

[Castellon]

Originally posted by Daniel A


Castellon!

I have checked your moral FAQ and I have problems understanding the effect of the moral slider. Could you please help me.

You call it a "factor" but it appears to be part of a subtraction (it is preceded by a minus sign). For me factors are parts of mulitplications, not subtractions.

It appears to be a percentage modifier of the base moral but it is not put into the formula as a factor to the base moral but as an additative (hope that is the correct word) element.

Shoudn't the formula look something like

BaseMoral * Maintenance Slider effect + DP + Religion - Bankuptcy

I must admit that I have starred at this formula for 10 minutes now and I still not get it? It is especially the nature of the Maintenance slider effect that is a mystery to me. The basic nature of the slider should be that if I have it at 50% then something should be 50% of something else. The question remains, at least for me, of what is it 50%?

Sorry if I am just stupid

Don't get hung up on the terminology.
The 50% is just a support rate.
Also note when the slider is in the full left position it is at 50% not 0%. The Slider goes from 50% -100%.
You would think it was a multiple, and the popup text in game is also very misleading. That is why a lot of people were confused about how it worked and some debates ensued which led me to do the testing and eventual FAQ on the subject. I can assure you I did LOTS of testing on this and the formula in the FAQ is correct.
As I said earlier, It really opened my eyes regarding the maintenance slider settings.
Feel free to ask again if this was not clear. It know it is counter intuitive the way it works, which makes finding formulas for the game mechanic very "interesting". Although this one I found quicker than the Colonization one, that had a lot of variables to figure out.

 

[Castellon]

Originally posted by Daniel A
Castellon!

Sorry, I still don’t get it. To make it easier for you to understand my problem I will make an example.

Formula

Base Morale for the tech level + DP bonus(penalty) + Religious Bonus + (.5000 - Maintenance factorX) - Bankrupt Penalty.

Assume: Base moral = 2. DP bonus = +1. Religion bonus = 0. Bankrupt Penalty = 0. Maintenance = 50%.

I apply your formula, except the maintenenance. Then it will look like this

2 + 1 + 0 + (0.5 - Maintenance factorX) – 0.

So far so good. OK. Now I want to replace ”Maintenance factorX” with something. I go to your FAQ and this is what it says:

”The effect of Maintenance is based on the BaseMorale for the Tech level exclusive of any DP slider or Religious bonus.
It is 0.500 - FactorX

Maintenance FactorX:
100% maintenance = 0
50% Maintenance(slider at full left) = -25% of Base Morale for that level. ”

I cannot understand what value I should insert in the formula.

Since my maintenance is 50% I should perhaps just insert ”-25% of Base Morale for that level”. Well in that case it will look like this

(0.5 - -0.5). That equals +1 which makes my total moral = 4.

The theoretical formula would then (perhaps) be: (0.5 – Basemoral*Maintenance*0.5*-1). The –1 being a constant inserted just to make the whole latter part of the expression negative.

A more revolting suggestion is that the 0.5 constant now present in your formula really is a factor and not a term. Perhaps it should be like this:

(0.5 * BaseMoral * Maintenance)

This would mean that in my case the value of the expression within the parenthesis would be = 0.5 = (0.5*2*0.5). Since 0.5 is 25% of 2 it coincides with the 25% you are referring to. However, I have the wrong sign. You state it should be –25% while in my case it becomes +25%. Anyhow this makes my total moral = 3.5.

**************************************************
The best thing you could do is giving us an exact mathematical expression of what is hidden within the parenthesis. As it is today we have no such expression.
**************************************************

I am looking forward to your response!

Yours
Daniel

I think the problem you are having is the formula vs the assignment of Factor X
In assigning -25% the negative is redundant. Only there to make it clear what is happening. The subtraction in the formula is the same negative as in the asignment, so they do not cancel each other. In trying to make it clear perhaps I have added to your confussion.
In your example:
Maintenance = 50%
It should be (.500 - .500) = 0
Therfore total morale = 3

Maintenance at 100%
It would be (.500 - 0) = +.500
Therfore 3.5 If at full support.

 

[Castellon]

Originally posted by Daniel A


OK we are getting closer. It would have been nice if you had presented a formula not related to the figures in my example but we will try this way instead (I will suggest two different formulas further down).

If I am right the truth is either of two alternatives.

ALTERNATIVE 1 - BaseMoral not relevant

If you have 100% you add 0.5 to your moral. If you have 90% you add 0.4 etc down to adding 0 if you are down to 50% maintenance. If so it means that, contrary to what written, said factorx has nothing to do with Basemoral.

The expression in the paranthesis in the formula will be as simple as this

(MaintenancePercent - 0.50)

where maintenance percent is used as a decimal number, i.e. e.g. 80% is represented as 0.8.

Even though this matches the outcome in my example it is perhaps wrong, only working when BaseMoral is exactly 2.

ALTERNATIVE 2

If we assume that the value of the parenthesis is dependent upon BaseMoral another alternative appears to be attractive.
What we should do then, at 100% maintenance, is to add 100% of 25% of your Base moral. So if you have 4 in Base moral you get +1 in factor X at 100%. At 90% maintenance we add 90% of 25% of BaseMoral, i.e. 0.9 at 90% etc. Is this correct?

Then the parenthesis should look like this

(BaseMoral*0.25*MaintenancePercent)

again letting maintenance percentage be represented by a decimal value according to above.

Hopefully one of these two alternatives is correct. I am eager for hearing which one. (I do hope it isn't a third one but if it is please write down the formula since that says it all).

----------

It is amazing that the slider appears to have such a small influence. As I wrote earlier in this thread in my current game I just got to invinceable level but when I reduced from 100% to 50% my soldiers became just strong.

Can you see the moral of an army in the save file? If that is the case I could check it for myself. Where did you find the figures that makes up this factorx? You must have been able to see an exact figure of the moral somewhere. The rest is of course elementary.

I have now spent 2-3 hours today writing these posts, trying to understand what you say and also thinking in general about the problem. I do hope we will reach the end soon

Thanks for still trying to help me understand this and I am sure something good will come out of it also for you, since you will have material for enhancing the text in your FAQ, making it easy to understand even for us who are just a little above average IQ

PS Note my Sig! Brilliant suggestion by you that we should write down our release of the game!

The good news: I am happy to help you with this.
The Bad news: Neither of your equations is correct.
I do not understand what you want in terms of a formula. I have already given one in the FAQ. Do you just want me to restate it by moving some terms around?
In the formula you can replace
(.5000 - Maintenance factorX)
with
(0.500 - (((100-Maintenance level)/2) * BaseValue of Tech))

I think how I presented it in the FAQ makes it easier to understand than that though.

You can view the exact morale figures in the save game files. Just be very careful comming to conclusion about the number though. Since there are a number of factors that effect them as shown in the FAQ. Also some effects take a few months to be realized, such as increasing the maint. factor from 50% to 100%. ...

 

[Castellon]

Originally posted by Daniel A


Thanks Castellon!

The problem with the formula in the FAQ is that it is not possible to understand. It is in fact not a formula since Factorx has no clear mathematical definition within the FAQ.

Sound the trumpet! We've got it!

This makes the formula:

********************************************
(0.500 - (((1-Maintenance level)/2) * BaseValue of Tech))

where maintenance level is shown as a decimal number, i.e. e.g. 50% is represented as 0.5 etc

***********************************

Okay were to begin, lets see. When solving a mathematical formula brackets are used to override order of operation. so your first attempts at the formula without doing the subtraction in the brackets first were meaningless. I just threw that formula together off the top of my head, to honour your request, my mistake! I did not know you were going to try and use it only tell me that is what you were looking for. The formula as written can be corrected by dividing by 200 instead of two. Therefore
(0.500 - (((100-Maintenance level)/200) * BaseValue of Tech))
That solves your converting from percentage problems.

Now the only question remains: how to say this in normal words for people like Owl who doesn't like math?

I think this is done already in the FAQ. When writing the FAQ I did so not with the anticipation that people would want or use it to calculate their exact morale (since they can get those figures from the save game). Rather I wanted to show what the various effects on morale were, so people could make intelligent and informed decisions when it came to morale.
As for your specific area of concern the maintenance factor, I have not heard anyone mention setting the slider at anything other than 50% or 100%. So That is why I just gave those two values for X. Rather than the more confusing formula above.

This is complicated. First establish that the percentage displayed on the screen is halved by the program. That is: if you go from 100 to 50% you change something not by 50% but only by a mere 25%. What is "something"? Something is the BaseValue of your Tech. So if your BaseValue is e.g. 2 then the effect is 25% of 2, i.e. a decrease of your moral by 0.5. Perhaps you could say it in one sentence: When you move your maintenance slider to the left you take half of that move (e.g. if you move it from 100% to 80% you take 10%) and then decrease your moral with that percentage of your Base moral for your current tech level. Huh!

Or you could just say the percentage changed * half of the baseValue.
Which would change the formula to:
(0.500 - (((100-Maintenance level)/100) * (BaseValue of Tech *2)))

I believe that we can skip the 0.500 at the start and consider it being a constant, which it really appears to be (BTW, it appears resonable to assume it represents what you get for your first 50% of the slider, that part you cannot alter). If we leave it outside the formula the formula becomes easier to understand and results are the same.

Actually the .500 is what you get for 100% maintenance not 50%.

I do hope this is correct! Especially that "+0.5" looks ugly. Coming to think of it. If it represents what you get for the first 50% then it is the same as you get for the next 50% _if_ you have a base value of 2. But if you have a BaseValue of 4 you will get +1 when you go from 50% to 100%. Then reasonably you ought to get +1 for the first 50% also. But perhaps the programmer made a mistake Are you sure it is always 0.5 Castellon?

Your reasoning here is flawed since the .500 is for 100% maintenance. It is for sure a constant. And yes I am sure it is always .500.


----------------------------

Puh! Another 2 hours spent. But if we have reached the truth then it was worth it Now I will go home and try to find the moral values of my armies in the save file!

I think part of the problem you are having here is that you chose a poor example of a tech with base 2. since the max penalty here is also .500 and the constant as well.

 

[Castellon]

Originally posted by Daniel A
It sure does but I must say: it is not only mine problem. That problem occurs for anyone trying to understand the mathematics!

It was not personal. Maybe I should have said "the problem" instead of "your problem".

I often do that. When I want to save money but do not dare to move all the way to 50%.

Get off the fence man.

This I do not understand. Do you mean that if you are at less than 100% maintenance this "constant" becomes variable and diminishes?

In a way yes.
If you are at 100% you get +.500 regardless of tech level.
If you are at 50% you get less than that, how much is dependant on tech level, and will become negative amount after base morale 2.
This is what our whole discussion has been about.

OK good to know. But still I believe it appears reasonable to look upon it as a bonus for having the first 50% maintenance "on". Otherwise it appears to be just a extra bonus for nothing special. But perhaps your response to the previous question will clarify this.

I hope it has clarified it.
Now maybe you see why it is written in the FAQ as it is.
Since it is pretty much what our discussion has come down to as summarized above.

Again, thanks a lot for your help in clarifying this for me

You are most welcome.

 

[Castellon]

Originally posted by Nikolai II


But 0.500 is a constant.

It is the maximum bonus morale you can get from having army mintenance slider at 100%, and it is constant throughout the game. (IIUC)

What isn't a constant is what you get at 50% maintenance. If I Understand Correctly you get a penalty to morale at 50% if at TL3+

You are essentially correct.

The .500 is constant it is only what is subtracted from it that is not.

At low tech levels an amount is subtracted that is less than .500
so the over all number is still positive. At higher tech levels the amount subtracted exceeds .500 so the overall amount is negative.

 

[Castellon]

Originally posted by Daniel A


Thanks! Now I can relax again Obviously I misunderstood you.

But this really means that my suggestion that the system always gives the player a +0.5 bonus in moral shousl have something to do with the fact that you always have at least 50% maintenance, appears to be a really bright idea But of course, somewhat bugged since it should be dependent on your BaseMoral also since your slider move from 50 to 100% is. But the system designer/programmer obviously forgot that

Actually it is when the slider moves from 100% down to 50% that it is dependant on base moral of the tech level.
At 100% it is constant at +.500