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Aregorn

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Anyone analysed already which is the best balanced Legion composition? I am using Legions of 6 cohorts at the moment: 3 Heavy infantry + 1 Cavalry + 1 horse archers + 1 archers, when I face a bigger army I merge this basic legions. By the way keeping smaller size Legions result in less problems of Loyal cohorts :).
 

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Not that I'm even remotely qualified to offer strategic advice on this game yet, but I usually go with:

X Heavy Infantry
X-2 Archers
And then some secondary amount of horsies (usually a total of about X-2), equally split between Cavalry and Horse Archers.

So I might have 10 Heavy Infantry, 8 Archers, and 3-4 each of Cavalry and Horse Archers. If I'm able and willing to field an army composed of 26 regiments, that is.

Cheers.
 
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I'd say it depends on what your primary opponent fields. If he has a lot of heavy infantry, then your cavalry will be mostly useless.

Personally I tend to go with mainly hevy infantry plus some archers and horse archers if I can get ahold of horses, as well as some light infantry mercenaries from my border provinces.

The ratio I go for is usually 2 or 3 heavy inf : 1 archer : 1 horsy : 2 light inf mercenaries.

But what really matters is your general's martial rating. Troop composition is strictly secondary to that.
 

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I go for 30 regiment legions as the standard unit. For tougher fights I combine two or three legions. In addition I also try to have a ~10-12 regiment strong pure cavalry (to ride down demorilised enemies) corps and if I have some free light infantry (from events or starting armies) I combine them to be the siege specialists.

The standard 30 regiment legion I use has 14 HI, 12 archers, 4 cavalry. If short on cavalry change that to 15 HI, 13 archers and 2 cavalry (mercs if no other cavalry is available).


But what really matters is your general's martial rating. Troop composition is strictly secondary to that.
:rofl:
 

Melichai

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I use 20K blocks...8K Heavy Infantry, 8K Archers, 2K Cavalry and 2K Horse Archers. Sometimes detach the cavalry to go thump smaller Barbarian armies on their own.

Generally works fine so long as there is a high martial leader in charge. Id be hesitant to go with larger armies...you dont need them if you have a good general and the attrition hit on your manpower/war exhaustion if you have to go into enemy territory isnt worth it.
 

Darth Moose

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I have found 4 cav + 2 ha to be a good anti-barbarian stack - I use them to trigger barbarian uprisings, and squash them. However, the barbarians in questions should not be allowed to grow too large (bring more units if you do).
 

Sheltonious

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All good points. Lets not forget about those who have access to War Elephants. I generally stick with a 20 stack for my offensive troops. Strong enough to win most battles and not so big that attrition is a real problem. And I like to keep a 30 stack for defense, since I don't generally have to worry about attrit within my own borders.

Naturally the leader's Martial value is the most important factor, then terrain, and then unit composition. In my current game I am Egypt and I am still using a stack that I started the scenario (2nd Punic War) with which is 24 units consisting of 8 HI, 8 War Ele, and 8 Archers. I had some success with these troops. I also had another group with 23 units comprising solely of Heavy Infantry. I prefer to keep my legions balanced but the scenario gave me these at the start as well and I basically used them to come behind my main army and take provinces. I just put Ptolomy in charge and sent the Heavy Infantry screaming toward the enemy's gates.

When you play Egypt you start without horses but the War Elephants more than make up for them. Also, even if your leader's Martial value is inferior to your opponents you can still win battles. Simply pause the game when the battle begins and select your finest Assasin to kill off the opposing General. If you are successfull the enemy will not be able to replace his commander until the battle is over. So you will pretty much have a gaurenteed victory. And there is a good chance they will not be able to retreat so these can be gamechanging battles. Your assasin will not be successfull every time and if you get caught then you can't use this nifty little trick for another year or so.
So save it for the big ones.
 

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I usually go with stacks of twelve, mostly because I would rather seige more and fight less. Plus, it is rare if the comp has more units in a stack, and if they do I just put two+ stacks together.

As far as composition goes, I tend to go 6 heavy, 6 archers. I leave my have in different stacks (which is different than I play in EU3).
 
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Well since my last game is with Macedonia i dont tend to use large stacks... And i found out that stacks of 12-16 are great. Usualy i put 8HI-4CAV-4CAV ARCHERS. So i can win most of the battles (if enemy stack is bigger i often have 2-3 myn stacks close so i can coordinate attack)
 
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I see lots of huge armies there, did you guys checked on the supply effects specially when in enemy territory? how does an army of 24 cope with a 5 supply limit province?

Not.

The thing is, small armies will be eaten alive if your enemy waltzes in with a heavy infantry stack of doom (HISD), so if your enemy is a major power with a large army, you will need to counter this with a large army of your own, if only to defend your territory.

Once that threat is dealt with, you can still use more reasonably sized siege detachments if necessary.

Why the laugh? :confused: It's true.
 

Swuul

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Why the laugh? :confused: It's true.
Oh, I thought you were jesting at the fools claiming the commander is the only that matters. It's a good joke, and it pops up all the time here :)

Would you rather take a MAR8 commander with 10 LI, or a MAR6 commander with 10 HI? If the martial value of the commander is the most important thing and the troops have no meaning, then you will take the light infantry, right?


The martial value of the commander *is* important, of course, but it is *far* from being the *deciding* factor. Terrain, ideas and omen can in effect change the MAR rating by -5. Archers kill everything, no matter what the dice-rolls are, as long as the front line holds. And in MP you have to have several commanders at a battle anyway, because your opponent will try to assassinate your precious MAR10 commander the first second he enters combat (not to mention you can't save and reload when a stray arrow kills the commander during the fight).

If I have the choice, then I want to enter the battle with higher MAR rating than the opponent. But to believe a MAR10 commander is an immortal being who can ignore everything else is IMO simply stupid :)
 

Sheltonious

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Yea, and anyone who brings Militia to battle his enemies is a noob. Use them for killing rebels if you don't have access to horses. If you have horsies then you make a 10 stack of Cav and HA to ride down rebels, especially helps if you have a lot of provinces....fast response to any would be troublemakers.
 

Peter Ebbesen

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All good points. Lets not forget about those who have access to War Elephants.
To a certain degree, we should forget about them in general while remembering them in the few, very few, situations where they make sense. War Elephants are a one trick pony (well, elephant :D) that, at an outrageous cost, are only truly useful to those who cannot recruit heavy infantry and do not have cavalry either (or have cavalry and low tech and isn't willing to spend ideas on improving his cavalry).

Code:
A/D        Cav     Militia Hinf    WElph  
Cav        1.0     1.5     0.7     0.5
Militia    0.5     1.0     0.75    0.25
HInf       1.2     1.25    1.0     1.0
WElph      0.75    2.0     1.0     1.0
--------------------------------------
Archers    0.75    2.0     1.25    1.0
Harchers   0.75    2.0     1.25    0.5
Attackers - rows, defenders - columns.

As a slow front line unit (and hence useless in a fast army), the only thing interesting from a damage perspective is how much damage it deals versus other front line units and how much it takes from the front line and the rear shooting line.

With the lack of ideas or decisions improving the war elephants - but easily available to cavalry and heavy infantry - and the additional significant tech bonuses over the first 20 levels or so (of which war elephants benefit the least), elephants come off in practice as being significantly worse off in the long run than their already unimpressive stats would indicate.

As can be seen, for anybody who does have access to heavy infantry, using war elephants in the front line instead of heavy infantry is a remarkably bad idea - unless he expects to be fighting mainly militia armies.

-----

Don't get me wrong - I like war elephants and find them a reasonable substitute early in a game if I have no heavy infantry recruitment possibilities, cannot acquire it via a simple trading route, and, at the same time, have a very strong economy.... it is just that, for the most part, the conditions needed to make recruiting them worthwhile seldom show up for the nations that can recruit elephants in the first place.
 
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Oh, I thought you were jesting at the fools claiming the commander is the only that matters. It's a good joke, and it pops up all the time here :)

Would you rather take a MAR8 commander with 10 LI, or a MAR6 commander with 10 HI? If the martial value of the commander is the most important thing and the troops have no meaning, then you will take the light infantry, right?
Of course any such statement falls flat when taken to its most absurd extreme, but note that I never said that unit composition is absolutely and completely unimportant, only that it is secondary to having the superior commander in the field.

Of course heavy infantry, being hands down the most cost effective unit for most of the game, will have an edge against light infantry, even when the latter is being commanded by a superior leader.

The martial value of the commander *is* important, of course, but it is *far* from being the *deciding* factor. Terrain, ideas and omen can in effect change the MAR rating by -5. Archers kill everything, no matter what the dice-rolls are, as long as the front line holds. And in MP you have to have several commanders at a battle anyway, because your opponent will try to assassinate your precious MAR10 commander the first second he enters combat (not to mention you can't save and reload when a stray arrow kills the commander during the fight).
Of course, in MP you also run around with 50+ stacks and other ridiculous stuff like that. Paradox multiplayer games are the realm of crazy game exploits, and I strictly refuse to take them into account. ;)

Personally I've so rarely seen assassinations succeed in the game that I rarely use them at all. High finesse commanders are usually more useful in other functions.

Anyway. Leadership may not be the absolute only stat necessary, but it's certainly more important than having 1 archer more or 1 cavalry less in your stack. The important thing to remember is that the MAR stat affects both attack and defense, so a superior commander has an edge even in inferior terrain (which tends to penalise attackers only).

Archers kill "everything", yes, but once the frontline collapses they die just like everyone else. And your frontline collapses much earlier if yours is the inferior commander.

So no, your M10 commander probably won't win a fight against an M6 commander if it's a fight between light infantry and heavy infantry. But if both sides are closely matched in numbers, it is much, much more likely than he succeeds, even if his opponent fights in superior terrain.

If I have the choice, then I want to enter the battle with higher MAR rating than the opponent. But to believe a MAR10 commander is an immortal being who can ignore everything else is IMO simply stupid :)
Then it's a good thing I never said this, don't you think? ;)
 

Sheltonious

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War Elephants

Don't get me wrong - I like war elephants and find them a reasonable substitute early in a game if I have no heavy infantry recruitment possibilities, cannot acquire it via a simple trading route, and, at the same time, have a very strong economy.... it is just that, for the most part, the conditions needed to make recruiting them worthwhile seldom show up for the nations that can recruit elephants in the first place.



I was using the starter stack for Egypt i got in the 2nd Punic War scenario and it comes with HI, WE and Archers. Basically using War Elephants in place of Cav since Egypt does not have access to horses. In that situation the WE worked well and I had success.

I'm sure their value will decrease over time as you said but by that time I will have gotten my money's worth out of them by winning battle after battle and eventually gaining access to horses. Then I can retire them or just keep them to chase down the occasional rebel for entertainment value. Either way I am a War Elephant fan.

I know its a little off topic but when I played Rome:Total War I would pick Carthage solely for their armored war elephants. I loved putting them on the flanks of the enemy's front line troops and just charging them right down the line. They would stampede from either side and meet in the middle.....good times. I can still hear the screams, lol.
 

Swuul

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Yes, elephants replace Heavy infantry, *not* cavalry. Early on phants are a good replacement for HI although *very* expensive (their upkeep cost makes you cry). As techs advance phants become second-rate units pretty fast.

Phants used to have pretty close to insane efficiency (can't remember if it was still in beta or after release) but they got toned down. Combined with the fact that in EU:Rome phants can be convoyed (when they historically could not; it is still a mystery *how* Pyrrhus succeeded to convoy his few phants over the straits from Balkans to Italy, a feat nobody has since then been able to repeat (he must have had access to some heckuva potent sedative)), and with ridiculous speed of invasion in vanilla Rome, phants could be dropped at will anywhere and anytime. Rome had absolutely zero chance against the Cartahgian teleporting juggernauts from hell; luckily that option has been seriously toned down (although I *still* would prefer the phants to be stroger especially initially, and just not be able to be convoyed by ships :) ).
 

Aregorn

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Yes, elephants replace Heavy infantry, *not* cavalry. Early on phants are a good replacement for HI although *very* expensive (their upkeep cost makes you cry). As techs advance phants become second-rate units pretty fast.

Phants used to have pretty close to insane efficiency (can't remember if it was still in beta or after release) but they got toned down. Combined with the fact that in EU:Rome phants can be convoyed (when they historically could not; it is still a mystery *how* Pyrrhus succeeded to convoy his few phants over the straits from Balkans to Italy, a feat nobody has since then been able to repeat (he must have had access to some heckuva potent sedative)), and with ridiculous speed of invasion in vanilla Rome, phants could be dropped at will anywhere and anytime. Rome had absolutely zero chance against the Cartahgian teleporting juggernauts from hell; luckily that option has been seriously toned down (although I *still* would prefer the phants to be stroger especially initially, and just not be able to be convoyed by ships :) ).

Well in the mean time you could decide not transport them as a house rule as I agree this is not correct. I am sure it is something moddable though.
 

Sheltonious

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Well in the mean time you could decide not transport them as a house rule as I agree this is not correct. I am sure it is something moddable though.

Then how did Hannibal get his Elephants into Spain when he took his army across the Alps as he did historically? You were saying that elephants were not transported out of Africa?