Armor v. Comb. Arms Expert traits

[MR2]

Panzer Expert trait states Armor Division Defense +10%.

Comb. Arms Expert trait states Motorized Defense +15% and Mechanized Defense +15%

Both traits give increased chance of Blitz/Encirclement tactics.


Will CAE give bonus to MOT/MEC in a Armor Division?

If the game allowed, would both traits work with a Armor Division containing both ARM/MOT?

 

[seattle]

I think if it mentions "division" explicitly then it only applies 100% or 0% for the entire division.

What division type it is, you can tell by the default icon.
Beware though: in case of a tie-breaker, the battalions are calculated from left to right.

That leads to funny compositions. If you want an artillery division: put line artillery on the left, then in equal parts infantry and cavalry.
Why both? So that neither trumps the artillery.
2 arty, 3 cav, 3 inf --> arty divison (6 width per type)
3 cav, 2 arty, 3 inf --> cav division

Paradox lost control over its own creation somewhere along these lines, Oppenheimer-style...

Edit:
It's not even that straightforward. Infantry already has so much defence that further buffs only help you to a certain point. Armour might benefit more despite the lower gain in absolute numbers.

Kinda like breakthrough for tanks which comes with diminishing returns.

You can never have enough soft/gard attack unlike defence/breakthrough/piercing/armour.

 

[King Of Heroes]

I believe the Combined Arms bonus refers to Mot/Mec Brigades while Panzer Expert refers to Armor class divisions (Defaults to tank icon), So CA would benefit more overall assuming not every single one of your fast divisions are classified as Armor.

I personally use armies that are composed of 10 40W Armor and 14 20W Mot/Mech so Combined Arms is a no brainer for me because it should benefit both of them as opposed to just the Armor divisions.

 

[MR2]

If the game allowed, would both traits work with a Armor Division containing both ARM/MOT?

So then by a quirk in the game, both traits bonuses would apply.

Paradox lost control over its own creation somewhere along these lines, Oppenheimer-style...

Too funny.

 

[seattle]

I believe the Combined Arms bonus refers to Mot/Mec Brigades while Panzer Expert refers to Armor class divisions (Defaults to tank icon), So CA would benefit more overall assuming not every single one of your fast divisions are classified as Armor.

I personally use armies that are composed of 10 40W Armor and 14 20W Mot/Mech so Combined Arms is a no brainer for me because it should benefit both of them as opposed to just the Armor divisions.

As Germany my fast units are all tank divs due to the stacking panzer bonuses from theorist, designer, generals to bltzkrieg doctrine.

I use the starting template and adjust it over time: adding support companies, gradually switching light to medium tanks, mot to mech...

 

[SophieX]

I didn't find any "clue" that those traits only works for divisions or brigades.

What I found is this:
- those traits provide modifiers, like:
combined_arms_expert = {
.......
modifier = {
motorized_defence_factor = 0.15
mechanized_defence_factor = 0.15
}

In the wiki I found this:

motorized_defence_factor

Modifies the defence of all motorized units in the army

And units are battalions ( and it doesn't matter, how many MOT are in a division. )

So far this is my explanation how those traits works

 

[bitmode]

And units are battalions ( and it doesn't matter, how many MOT are in a division. )

The game does not use the name"unit" very consistently. Strictly speaking divisions and task forces are units. Battalions are sub units.

You can see the modifier being applied in a battle when hovering over the attack/defense/breakthrough (yes, "defense" is another ambiguous word in these modifiers) values of a matching division:

The 17.5% bonus from "Commander skill" come from the general's level 3 attack skill (+7.5%) and Panzer Leader (+10%). Combined Arms Expert works the same way.

- those traits provide modifiers, like:
combined_arms_expert = {
.......
modifier = {
motorized_defence_factor = 0.15
mechanized_defence_factor = 0.15
}

Compare this to how bonuses to a battalion are implemented (Marines 2 tech):

        marine = {
            max_organisation = 5
            soft_attack = 0.05
        }

 

[SophieX]

The game does not use the name"unit" very consistently......

Thanks @bitmode for your ( as always ) very good and helpful explanation!

I am used to think logical, but I often forget,
that this is not always the "right" way to interpret software-game-mechanics

 

[Simon_9732495]

What division type it is, you can tell by the default icon.
Beware though: in case of a tie-breaker, the battalions are calculated from left to right.

That leads to funny compositions. If you want an artillery division: put line artillery on the left, then in equal parts infantry and cavalry.
Why both? So that neither trumps the artillery.
2 arty, 3 cav, 3 inf --> arty divison (6 width per type)
3 cav, 2 arty, 3 inf --> cav division

I think you are not 100% correct there.

2 arty, 3 cav, 3 inf --> arty division
3 cav, 2 arty, 3 inf --> also arty division

Spoiler: Screenshots of Templates

It's not (in the first place) the position in the template that counts, but there are priorities for the Division type for each batallion. See here: -> https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Division#Division_unit_type

Arty has 1198
Cav has 599
Inf has 600

Weighted with batallion count in your example:
Arty 2x1198 = 2396
Cav 3x599 = 1797
Inf 3x600 = 1800
-> Highest is Arty, therefore it's an Arty Division.

If you remove one Arty it's a Inf Division (1800>1797>1198)
If you add one INF it's a INF division (4*600=2400).

And now to the example you maybe wanted to show :
If you add one CAV to first one it's still a Arty division (4*599=2396 = 2x1198).
If the weighted prioritys are the same the upper left batallion in the template counts.
If you add one CAV to the second template it's a CAV division.

2 arty, 4 cav, 3 inf --> arty division
4 cav, 2 arty, 3 inf --> cav division

See here:

Spoiler: Screenshots of Templates

To get back to the thread topic: What would be a Mot or a Mec topic?

Motorized has 599
Mech has 610
Medium Tank has 2502

• 2 Medium Tanks and 8 Mech would be a Tank division and get the Bonus from Panzer Expert
• 1 Medium Tank and 9 Mot would be a Mot division and get the bonus from Combined Arms Expert

Paradox lost control over its own creation somewhere along these lines, Oppenheimer-style...

Why? It's that simple...

 

[seattle]

@Simon_9732495
Thanks for clarifying! I didn't have the game at hand to test my assumption. Bottom line: this system is way to complicated and no wonder that an experienced human player can massacre the a.i.
I seriously hope that HoI5 will get rid of the division designer and only have 1 infantry unit, 1 tank unit etc. which are modified by tech and national modifiers.

Nobody ever claimed that Chess is a dumbed down version of HoI despite its streamlined nature.

 

[Commonblob]

@Simon_9732495
I seriously hope that HoI5 will get rid of the division designer and only have 1 infantry unit, 1 tank unit etc. which are modified by tech and national modifiers.

Are you kidding man? The division designer is one of this game's main selling points. I love having such a high degree of control over my units. Even HOI3 has a simple division designer and doesn't limit each country to just 1 division of each type.

 

[seattle]

Are you kidding man? The division designer is one of this game's main selling points. I love having such a high degree of control over my units. Even HOI3 has a simple division designer and doesn't limit each country to just 1 division of each type.

It sounds good on paper, but the a.i. can't handle it.

WW2 shouldn't be dominated by Space Marines. Fall Gelb shouldn't be possible to win in 5 days due to 30kmh pure Leopard divisions...

A competitive a.i. is only possible when you give them the same meta templates that experienced players are using (Expert a.i.).
Even then, players can use counters to that and the a.i. can't react.

In MP I can see the beauty of adapting to the opponent and trying to outwit them.

 

[Emren]

@Simon_9732495I seriously hope that HoI5 will get rid of the division designer and only have 1 infantry unit, 1 tank unit etc. which are modified by tech and national modifiers.

I rather hope the next DLC (or the DLC that will focus on land combat) will fix the worst issues with the division designer and the related illogical combat resolution. I think the division designer concept is brilliant, but implementation isn’t super intuitive. As for the AI, even in simpler games than this, AI’s always struggle, don’t they?

 

[seattle]

I rather hope the next DLC (or the DLC that will focus on land combat) will fix the worst issues with the division designer and the related illogical combat resolution. I think the division designer concept is brilliant, but implementation isn’t super intuitive. As for the AI, even in simpler games than this, AI’s always struggle, don’t they?

A.i. seems rather competent in chess

 

[Emren]

A.i. seems rather competent in chess

Yes, sorry, I meant simpler grand strategy games. Although, simpler and grand might contradictory...