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IEX Totalview

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Chaplain said:
Respectfully, how can you possibly provide meaningful input to these discussions when you "never played much past 1.03?" I mean, 1.06 is an entirely different animal.

I have played a bit of 1.06, but I did most of my playing through 1.03. Still, I don't see how that is relevant on the issue of micromanagement - if I played 1.06 for 100 hours straight, it would not change my opinion of whether or not reinforcing units in the production menu (like naval units) was good gameplay. It is not. Tell me how 1.06 changes that.

And, respectfully, I find your claim that my not playing 1.06 to death and beyond disqualifies any opinion I might have on HOI 2 to be insulting. Would you tell everyone posting here who hasn't spent hours on 1.06 their input was not "meaningful"? That's bullshit. Input is meaningful on its merits, not based on how much time one spent on this or that version of HOI. :mad:

What's more, all you have to do is return your ships to port (one click) and they will begin repairing themselves in HOI. Leave them there awhile, and voila, they're repaired.

That was added in one of the later patches, and made life much easier. Still, what was suggested in this thread was a reinforcement technique that was similar to the original way of reinforcing naval units be used for land units - miove them from the battlefield to the production queue.

The auto-repair added in later patches is fine by me - note I said earlier in the thread "...all I care is that my armor stays put when I hit "reinforce"." My specific complaint was against any reinforcement technique that removed your amor from the OOB, like naval reinforcement in the early patches of HOI.

I am on the side of those who want to increase the detail at the "expense" of micromanagement. IMHO, the micro you're describing is fun. Quite fun.

Well bully for you. I found it to be less than fun in practice, at least when the ships were involved.
 

IEX Totalview

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Zwiback said:
A simple economic system wouldnt require much clicking, but it would add much more deep and realism to the gameplay. Maybe we could scrap the provinces and different unit types too- after all they are not really meaningful too.

Unlike phyiscally taking armor out of the OOB and then manually putting it back in a week later (over and over again), I think provinces and different unit types pass the meaningfulness test. But hey, I never played much 1.06, so don't put too much stock in my opinion.
 

Maximilian I

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jacob-Lundgren said:
well it dont have to be that screen particularly :D but it seems more realistic to send new infantry out to a unit then new tanks and get an instant refilling. ...:p

I disagree about sending them to a pool being more realistic. in fact, most nations had a "replacement army" just to be able to do "fronline refreshments". only if the damage to a division was too large, it had to be send behind the frontlines for recovery. furthermore, it´d be mircomanagement hell...
 

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IEX Totalview said:
And, respectfully, I find your claim that my not playing 1.06 to death and beyond disqualifies any opinion I might have on HOI 2 to be insulting. Would you tell everyone posting here who hasn't spent hours on 1.06 their input was not "meaningful"? That's bullshit. Input is meaningful on its merits, not based on how much time one spent on this or that version of HOI. :mad:
Seriously, how can you expect anyone to know what you are talking about when in both your text and signature

(I never played HOI much past 1.03, so please disregard the previous post - it is not meaningful.)

you state that you haven't played much after patch 1.03 and that we even should disregard what you have posted? :)

Things do have changed since patch 1.03 but if you do have played 1.06 enough to make certain conclusions - why have a signature saying you have no credibility? I say loose the modest image and signature and stand up for you convictions! ;)
 

Soapy Frog

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Getting back to the question of the relative power of armour vs infantry.

Two things to consider:
1) Armour inflicts 3x org damage on infantry than infantry inflicts on anything
2) Infantry inflicts @40% more casualties on armour than armour inflicts on infantry

Ok, I am going to do math here, which I am very bad at, so bear with me. If you see any mistakes, feel free to jump in and point them out!

This means that, if infantry HA is equal to armour SA, the armour will win the fight (and much faster than infantry could) but at take more casualties per hour doing it. However given that the battle will be 1/3rd the length of an infantry vs infantry duel, the armour will actually suffer half the damage an infantry division (because the infantry division would take much longer to accomplish the job).

So as we can see, given equal attack points, armour is much much better than infantry. You can take your objective faster and at considerably less manpower cost... the price you ultimately pay for this is the massive additional supplies cost of reinforcing your armour unit... assuming armour is 6 times more expensive than infantry, and the cost of rebuild is 3 times more expensive than infantry, that means you are paying 9 times the supplies to repair your armour unit after a successful attack than you would be your infantry unit.

As we can see from these examples, a single armour division would have an even fight with 3 infantry divisions, but would come out of it badly beaten up, but probably victorious.

All this assumes equivalent SA vs HA. If you feel an armour division should be worth 6 infantry divisions in combat (a figure I have seen bandied about), well double its SA value. Of course the advance of tech makes the problem much more complex. Obviously a Panzer II division attacking a 1944 US Infantry division would do very poorly indeed!
 

jpd

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Maximilian I said:
I disagree about sending them to a pool being more realistic. in fact, most nations had a "replacement army" just to be able to do "fronline refreshments". only if the damage to a division was too large, it had to be send behind the frontlines for recovery.
Then again, even these divisions-in-recovery can get a sudden tactical and even strategic role. For example, when a British para division parachutes on top of two SS divisions, parked way behind the front for recovery/resting .....

Jan Peter
 

Zwiback

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About Tanks vs. Infantry:

- it depents on what kind of tank you use (support tanks with howizers are better then 37mm or 50mm Tanks designed for AT role)
- it depents how you use your tanks
- it depents how well equipped the enemies Inf units are in point of AT
- it depents on the terrain the battle takes place

Since we will not have single Regiments with different equipment in the divisions, maybe it would be good idea to give a "bonus" to Tank Corps or Armies, which contain a number of Motor/Mech Infantry- like one Inf (Mot/Mech) per two or three tank units. In RL, you need Infantry support for tanks and thats the reason why "Panzergrenadiere" were developed.

Also, especially not dug in Inf units should perform pretty weak against tanks in "normal" terrain. Contrawise there should be a bonus for Infantry units with a high dig in value, since they had enough time to build defensive perimeters and place their AT guns.
 

Zwiback

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About Armor rebuild costs:

Since the proprosal with "tank points" produced by factories was already rejected, I guess it has to be supplies then.

As I said in another thread, if you refresh your unit it should take some time to recover org. Also, str and org should make an impact on the fighting power of the unit so you should think about refreshing your unit because it would take some time to regroup. On the other side, units should break combat when on low str and org, so they get seldom eliminated in combat. Encirclements are another story but it would require serious firepower to eliminate a whole division. A weak unit should simply retreat and should be harder to hit then a fresh one. This way it would be much harder to kill units with superstacks of Divisions or Tac/Div Bombers.
 

Luka

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Zwiback said:
[snip]...
Since the proprosal with "tank points" produced by factories was already rejected, I guess it has to be supplies then.
...[snip]

Really? I thought that idea was rather good. Did we get a response as to why?
 

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The Great Tank Debate

Thought I'd chime in at the height of my Sunday afternoon boredom. I'll leave the math to those that can reasonably well ...

An Inf division with 50-100 AT guns, towed by trucks, equals the AT value of a tank division with 200 mobile turreted AT guns, plus their additional equipment. It's B.S.

This was in another thread but relevant to the discussion at hand; I believe it to be a decent starting point.

It seems what is missing is a good analysis of the relationship between Soft/Hard Attack values and terrain and Ground Defense values during HoI combat. In the quote noted above, I suggest its assertion is partially correct. It is entirely dependent upon the situation in which the two units are employed.

In relatively open terrain, the 200 tanks ought to consistently prevail. The tanks have a tremendous edge in mobility; thus, they are able to concentrate firepower quickly and more effectively than towed AT guns. Furthermore, the effectiveness of the towed AT guns would be greatly diminished if the infantry were on the offensive for the reason noted above.
However, provide the infantry with some decent cover or the opportunity to dig-in and 50 well-handled AT guns pose a considerable obstacle to 200 tanks; 100 AT guns are an absolute nightmare!

Subsequently, the value of the towed AT gun to the infantry ought to vary with its use. If in favourable terrain and on the defensive, AT guns ought to considerably raise the HA values and marginally increase the SA values of infantry. On the offensive or in less favourable terrain, towed AT guns ought to provide a minimal increase in HA/SA values. For me, the problem is my lack of insight of the relationship between HA/SA values, GD and terrain in HoI. How is GD affected by HA/SA values? Or terrain? Is this relationship consistently reflected in HoI based upon available historical data?

As I see it, the cost or value of a specific unit ought to vary with the nature of its employment. In basic terms, tanks attacking dug-in infantry in a wooded area is terribly costly. It is equally costly for infantry to attack tanks in open terrain. Thus, depending on the circumstances, the true value of a unit may be understated or overstated in HoI game terms (as in actual combat). However, in relative terms, it will always be costlier for tanks to operate. If we remove all the logistical & operational support staff, certainly it is much cheaper to fill the ranks of an infantry division than a tank division. On the basis of this alone, I propose it ought to be considerably more expensive in game terms to maintain tank forces than infantry forces.

Incidentally, this notion appears to be consistent with the evolution of warfare in the Second World War. Initially, the tank was truly the "Queen" of the battlefield. As the war progressed, the standard tank became increasingly vulnerable to infantry AT weapons and air attacks. Near the end of the war, air superiority was as much, if not greater, concern than tank superiority. Modern warfare is predicated upon the concept of gaining and/or maintaining air superiority. Consequently, in HoI game terms the true value of tanks ought diminish in direct relationship to enemy air and AT advancements as the war progresses.

My two bits, for what it's worth ...
 

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What I DONT like in HoI is how the reinforcement is possible almost anywhere. As long as you have linking provinces it doesnt matter how far the unit is from your industrial place. It gets instantly reinforced. This is not historical or realistic.

I suggest automatic reinforcing of ALL units. No more user reinforcement clicking. Less micromanagement. The AI just reinforces units based on the distance from own industry and infrastructure of linking provinces. This should happen gradually as it did historically. So that units not moving or fighting gain strength quite same way they now gain org. But this strength gain is modified by distance and infra and available manpower and supplies. Also there should be something done that about over seas supply...

This way we could have less micromanagement and more realistic simulation. It's a win-win situation.
 

Soapy Frog

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I would disagree, I think that you should be able to selectively reinforce, or even weaken some units to strengthen others.

This certainly happened historically, for example the German '42 summer offensive saw army group center minimally reinforced, and in many cases weaked so that the divisions of army group south could be at full strength...
 

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Tellu said:
What I DONT like in HoI is how the reinforcement is possible almost anywhere. As long as you have linking provinces it doesnt matter how far the unit is from your industrial place. It gets instantly reinforced. This is not historical or realistic.

I suggest automatic reinforcing of ALL units. No more user reinforcement clicking. Less micromanagement. The AI just reinforces units based on the distance from own industry and infrastructure of linking provinces. This should happen gradually as it did historically. So that units not moving or fighting gain strength quite same way they now gain org. But this strength gain is modified by distance and infra and available manpower and supplies. Also there should be something done that about over seas supply...

This way we could have less micromanagement and more realistic simulation. It's a win-win situation.

Interesting point. My primary concern is it may or may not be more 'historically' accurate. It depends whether or not the HoI reinforcement system automatically assumes reserve armies in place at a reasonable distance to the front. When I play, I normally like to keep stacks of units labelled "Reserve Army" or "Reserve Tank Army" in various theatres of operations. I can either the use the reserves as a whole to fill in where needed or strategically redploy units within the Army to bolster corps in the theatre of operation as I see fit. Subsequently, is the rapid reinforcement in HoI a reflection of 'phantom' reserve armies close to the front or is it a miscalculation on behalf of the designers?
 

Zwiback

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Really? I thought that idea was rather good. Did we get a response as to why?

Thanks. No, the lead programmer said in another "factory" thread that HOI2 wouldnt use a more complex economic system.

I guess they have another thing in mind. But anyway it was good to talk about these ideas :)
 

Zwiback

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Interesting point. My primary concern is it may or may not be more 'historically' accurate. It depends whether or not the HoI reinforcement system automatically assumes reserve armies in place at a reasonable distance to the front. When I play, I normally like to keep stacks of units labelled "Reserve Army" or "Reserve Tank Army" in various theatres of operations. I can either the use the reserves as a whole to fill in where needed or strategically redploy units within the Army to bolster corps in the theatre of operation as I see fit. Subsequently, is the rapid reinforcement in HoI a reflection of 'phantom' reserve armies close to the front or is it a miscalculation on behalf of the designers?

(I must sound like a parrot already *g*)

I have no problem with reinforcing serverly "damaged" units.

The problem now is simple: als long as you have more then 1 strengthpoint and 1 org point, the unit fights with 100% of its combat power. If you would bind org (and strength of course) to the units combat value, you would have to wait until a reasonable org level before you attack again. If you add now experience which gets serverly lowered by to many replacements, you may be better of with 50% str units with more experience and good org, then a 100% str unit with low exp and low org.

Like in WIR (I know... parrot), where you could give the higher HQ the order only to reinforce a unit until it drops under a certain str. level. It was very seldom the case that a unit had 100% of its strength.
 

Killerjes

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Truant said:
They lose org, yes, but they still fight at 100 % efficiency until org hits 0. My point was that that WWII-era tanks were disabled by simply driving from place to place. Replacing engines, transmissions, road wheels, tracks, etc. costs a substantial amount. But in game all it costs is a week of sitting still. For that reason, even if the cost of replacing equipment lost in combat for infantry and armor divisions was the same, it still makes sense for armor to cost more to represent the losses that are abstracted out of the game.
I agree!
However, the "100 % fighting efficiency until org hits 0"-rule should be changed IMHO.
 

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Killerjes said:
I agree!
However, the "100 % fighting efficiency until org hits 0"-rule should be changed IMHO.

Agree with that...

I wonder if changing replacements system neccessary has to be "micromanagement nightmare".

As a rough sketch of the reinforcement system I see something like that:

1) Ability to reinforce depends on the infrastructure of the province unit is in (national/annexed/occupied also makes difference) and is limited by daily "cap". It can also be further modified by something similar to the current "supply penalty" in HoI 1. For example, on the occupied terrain/infra 34/3 provinces from the "base", unit shouldn't get higher daily reinforcement rate then X %.

2) Game allows player to switch on "automatic reinforce" system. In that system player chooses, what level of losses results (80%/50% and so on) in reinforcing attempt made by the supporting AI.

3) Player got ability (nice, visible, bright button) to give "supply priority" to unit stack(s) of his choice. While on the priority, this unit will get reinforcements earlier then other units reinforced automatically.


Still, adding vehicle/plane/tank pool would be a bit more tricky thing if we want to keep game easy to manage.