Armor pentrating two-handers the best combatants (?) and experience gaps?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Lasci

Recruit
17 Badges
Dec 21, 2016
1
0
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II
  • BATTLETECH
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
Been playing around with the game a bit on Hard. I've gotten to Act 2 and feel like I have a fairly decent grasp on the combat so far. I've mostly played with my main character, who is a javelin-using damage dealer and tank when he needs to be... Barik, who I've had using two-handers almost exclusively... Verse, who is dual-wielding... and a rotating list of mages casting enhanced spells.

I don't understand all the math of combat (bonuses to damage and accuracy specifically elude me), but my experience has been that Barik absolutely dominates everything, able to tank with ~70 dodge and parry, 19 might, and is without a doubt consistently the best damage dealer on the team. My MC can keep up considering he's sword and board, doing damage from afar with javelins or bottle necking enemies while tanking with obscene parry (100+) and the Duelist talent tree while providing occasional magical support. Verse seems largely lackluster unless she's targeting someone with little to no armor. Which is fine, I suppose, considering she's a rogue, but her consistency and usefulness goes down the drain when dealing with a heavily armored two-hander.

Am I missing something, or does this game heavily favor the use of armor penetrating two-handers over everything else in the game? Magic staves don't appear able to do any damage and magic itself doesn't do very much damage, especially considering spells have cooldowns to deal with. Javelin and bows are occasionally fine, but based on the way the game utilizes accuracy with heavily diminishing returns (affording an advantage or a disadvantage to an attack roll rather than being used in the attack roll), two-handers are significantly better even in the hands of someone without any Finesse. Two-handers a) do more damage to pierce armor b) get a larger bonus from Might to pierce armor c) give consistent access to armor penetration.

Considering the frequency of armored opponents and what an obscene amount of armor they seem to have, there seems to be almost no benefit to dual wielding and little advantage to one-handing unless you sword-and-board for tanking. It almost feels like recovery is pointless compared to how much damage you can do in a single hit because breaching armor is such a significant need in the game. Have people had any success outside of these builds? Again, am I missing something?

Additionally, what's up with the fact that Barik has such a significantly higher amount of experience? He's a full level ahead of Verse, who is a half level ahead of my main character. Even Eb, who was a full level behind MC when I first picked her up, is now only a quarter of a level behind. I get this is tied to the use of skills, but why is my MC not utilizing his as often?
 

Khaylon

Second Lieutenant
Nov 15, 2016
173
69
Your defensive skills like parry/dodge increase with the damage received. If Barik is your main tank and takes most of the damage then his defensive skills grow faster and gains more xp than someone who takes less damage. Accuracy is less important here than it was in PoE - graze penalty is only 25% and you can have 100% hit to crit conversion... Armored enemies are also less problematic than they were in PoE - you can have huge armor penetration, bleed and poison damage, etc... However the base damage of the weapon is still very important. With haste you can swing a 2h weapons just as fast as any 1h weapon while doing much more damage - and the damage you deal is proportional to the xp you get. You get very little xp because you probably deal less damage than the others - ranged weapons deal low dmg and javelins are also weaker than bows.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

the streaker

Private
1 Badges
Jun 19, 2013
11
2
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
Your defensive skills like parry/dodge increase with the damage received. If Barik is your main tank and takes most of the damage then his defensive skills grow faster and gains more xp than someone who takes less damage. Accuracy is less important here than it was in PoE - graze penalty is only 25% and you can have 100% hit to crit conversion... Armored enemies are also less problematic than they were in PoE - you can have huge armor penetration, bleed and poison damage, etc... However the base damage of the weapon is still very important. With haste you can swing a 2h weapons just as fast as any 1h weapon while doing much more damage - and the damage you deal is proportional to the xp you get. You get very little xp because you probably deal less damage than the others - ranged weapons deal low dmg and javelins are also weaker than bows.

A few points:
- 100% conversion is not possible other than with a specific item only found on specific playthroughs and arguably overpowered. Otherwise you're around 25-40%
- A lot of weapons have very strong "on crit" abilities, so critting (and therefore accuracy) are quite important, especially in PotD and especially on tough enemies with high parry.
- 2h is not just as fast as 1h. Haste in this game reduces recovery, but not attack animation. 2h animation takes forever. 1h daggers are super fast. It's most evident when trying the hundred fists ability with a 2h axe and a dagger - huge difference in how long it takes to finish the combo. Add onto this the "on crit" effects and the weapon buffs that add x damage per hit and armor penetration, and 1h starts to look appealing.

I haven't done actual math, because it gets quite complicated and some values are unknown, but there is some value to choosing 1h over 2h.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

AndreaColombo

First Lieutenant
Nov 13, 2016
204
53
What's the OP conversion item?
 

AndreaColombo

First Lieutenant
Nov 13, 2016
204
53
Scales of Mercy from the burning library - only available if you don't destroy it...

The +5% Hit precision is cumulative and until combat ends?

Not that I'd expect combat to last enough for me to get to 100% that way, mind you ... but still :eek:
 

Khaylon

Second Lieutenant
Nov 15, 2016
173
69
The +5% Hit precision is cumulative and until combat ends?

Not that I'd expect combat to last enough for me to get to 100% that way, mind you ... but still :eek:
With max renown it becomes +9% per crit until the end of the fight. Each weapon buff can crit and if you add Whirlwind Strike/riposte/procs to the mix you can have 100% nearly instantly...
 
  • 2
Reactions:

whosthebestcop

Jimmy's The Best Cop
38 Badges
Mar 11, 2007
2.036
367
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • March of the Eagles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
The thing with magic it is not like PoE or say D&D where you have 150+ spells. Some of the highest damage dealing spells are ice with add ons strength and fire/ice. And then its just you use 3-4 of frost spells and modify them slightly when your Lore levels up.

In fact your mages really only need to use spells from 2-3 cores. If you use more cores than that the game gets wonky with level increasing since your increasing so many skills.

Barik was probably the character I disliked the most. I usually went with the 3 spell users or Kills. Since they are all pretty "fast" characters and kills gets something like 600-700 hit points.

Magic staffs are completely pointless. Other games they are needed either because of class restrictions or because you need your squishy mage users in the back rows. I usually had Lantry in heavy bronze breast plate upgraded to masterwork for serious speed improvement and with a 2 hander. Same thing for Eb and Sirin. But they usually were in light. Unless you plan on bringing all 3 then there isn't enough light high deflection armor for 3-4 party members. Typically only enough for 2, At least Kills needs no armor.

I would just make all my "magic users" engage in melee so their parry skill increases. If they act like squishy ranged users every time an enemy engages in melee they will get Ko'ed. But if they actively melee then there skills increase and they will perform perfectly as front line users that just happen to have the most spell slots.