Armor best setup

[unmerged(44315)]

I build three additional LArm brigades, in my German '36 GC. With the goal of making 3 (3 LArm + 1 AC) divisions. Once I research Arm, I build 12 (1 Arm + 2 Mot + 1 SPArt) divisions - in time for France. For the east front I build a ton of Mech and transform my units into 9 (1 LArm +1 AC + 2 Mech) fast divisions and 24 (1 Arm + 1 Mot + 1 SPArt + 1 Mech) regular armored divs. This lets me not waste any production time or scrap any units.

 

[unmerged(131628)]

I use:
2x Arm
2x Mech
1x SP art

3 divisions per corps
4 corps per army

Its expensive but its IMO best formation for fighting in europe as major nation.

 

[Saluki77]

1 L ARM
1 MOT
1 SP ART

Once I research superior firepower and spearhead doctrine I add 2 ARM to each division.

2 ARM
1 L ARM
1 MOT
1 SP ART

I like it this way, because its easy to add the 2 arm to each division. Also, France and Poland can be easily dominated with L ARM. Poland is a joke, and France can practially be beaten by Italy, so nothing too crazy is needed at that point.

But, later on when your fighting lots of amoured divisions, your gonna need that extra firepower. Your divsions hard attack will go up by like 10, making them a perfect counter for enemy armour, while having good speed and the combined arms bonus.

 

[unmerged(102897)]

While you are correct in your statement about the encirclements I have to add a opinion about the commonly perceived Pz advantage.

The speed advantage of armor during ww2 is partially a myth. German PzDivs were rarely faster than infantry Divs when you look at the rate of advance (in km/day) over the campaigns. Rarely faster than 4km/h on average.

There are occasions where they indeed drove day and night (something that's hard for an infantryman to achieve) like the 7.PzDiv during the invasion of France. But generally the doctrine of fast decisions and fast maneuvering (later adopted as "blitzkrieg") was independent of equipment.

Tanks were more commonly used in such roles (compared to other possible roles) because that's where it's strengths lie (protection, firepower and movement). But on many occasions infantry performed equally good as armored units when it comes to speed of advance.

By which you mean mounted infantry. A man cannot, over time, outpace a tank unless he is also in a vehicle or walks all day and night. As to the "myth" of armor speed advantage, it is no myth; blitzkrieg focused around schurmpunkt ("spear tip"; a hard narrowly-focused attack at a specific point) and rapid advances to destroy enemy lines of communication and supply. Infantry are unable to accomplish this feat (except against other infantry) which is why blitzkrieg is associated with mechanized warfare.

 

[Cavalry Scout]

By which you mean mounted infantry. A man cannot, over time, outpace a tank unless he is also in a vehicle or walks all day and night. As to the "myth" of armor speed advantage, it is no myth; blitzkrieg focused around schurmpunkt ("spear tip"; a hard narrowly-focused attack at a specific point) and rapid advances to destroy enemy lines of communication and supply. Infantry are unable to accomplish this feat (except against other infantry) which is why blitzkrieg is associated with mechanized warfare.

No, hes talking about regular foot Infantry. What he stated is a fact. The military unit record for largest sustained daily gains in km/day belongs to this day to Mongol Horse Archers who averaged something like 25/km a day which is pretty impressive. While Tank units tactically were faster than other units, when you averaged it all out, they faired about the same as Infantry in ground gained. The way your imagining it, tanks would have to be able to go full throttle without any contact with the enemy. Thats not how battle went (or goes for that matter). When tanks get into contact or EXPECT to be in contact, they slow down dramatically for security. Tanks blowing through will suffer horrendous casualties to AT Infantry in spider holes, land mines, and well placed AT guns. Now, if the tanks were able to get through without contact, sure they might make some substantial gains. But at the end of the day, when you average it out, it works out the same as Infantry.

Back on topic, I have a few different types of Armor Division I like to run.

Flanker light tanks Div. = 2xLA, 1xMot
Standard line breaker Div. = 1xMA, 1xLA, 1xMot (Sometimes Mech if I have enough)
Heavy Duty line breaker Div. = 1xSHA, 2xMA, 1x Mech

I sometimes will attach SP Arty or ENG BDEs as needed.

 

[Iridium]

No, hes talking about regular foot Infantry. What he stated is a fact. The military unit record for largest sustained daily gains in km/day belongs to this day to Mongol Horse Archers who averaged something like 25/km a day which is pretty impressive. While Tank units tactically were faster than other units, when you averaged it all out, they faired about the same as Infantry in ground gained. The way your imagining it, tanks would have to be able to go full throttle without any contact with the enemy. Thats not how battle went (or goes for that matter). When tanks get into contact or EXPECT to be in contact, they slow down dramatically for security. Tanks blowing through will suffer horrendous casualties to AT Infantry in spider holes, land mines, and well placed AT guns. Now, if the tanks were able to get through without contact, sure they might make some substantial gains. But at the end of the day, when you average it out, it works out the same as Infantry.

You also have to consider how those tanks are going to get refueled all the way out in front of their infantry support. Tanks can only drive so far till they run out of gas and trucks cannot always ship the stuff to them. Many times tanks out ran their own fuel supply, getting stranded until logistics could catch up, losing any major surprise or advantage that was being gained by their thrust.

Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.

 

[pnt]

There is a major difference between unit speeds in game and IRL. The game speeds are based on the tactical speed of some representative vehicle, so light and medium armor has different speeds. In reality, the (strategic) marching speed of all motorized units (all armor, mot, mech, etc) was about the same.

That said, however, in game the game the number of meaningful choices is very limited. It is nice to try to adopt various semi-historic compositions, but the only parameters that really matter are softness and speed.

You want to keep your softness as low as possible in the 34%-67% range for the combined arms bonus, and your speed as high as possible. This means that you want to avoid including slow combat or support units in your division.

In the late war period, Arm and Mot have matching speeds (9 and 8.7 respectively) and L. Arm and Mec do as well (11 and 10.4 respectively).

See http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Land_units for speed listings.

The only support units that can keep up with the Arm / Mot division are AC, SP Art, and SP R Art. However, all of them have a high softness. Thus, by adding them to the best combination of
3 Arm + 1 Mot,
with a softness close to the optimal 1/3, this gets diluted.

The fast division consisting of
2 L. Arm + 2 Mec or 1 L. Arm + 3 Mec
on the other hand can only be combined with SP R Art without loss of speed (but with some loss of hardness).

Experimenting with other support units only makes sense for H. Arm. Here you also have Eng and TD, which actually provides hardness.

 

[unmerged(141861)]

As far as cost to benefit the best early on is:

Arm
Arm
Arm
Eng
Since the Eng has 8 kph speed, and the combat bonuses over river or against a fort, plus the combined arems bonus.

And finally I have to build AC, I never did in HOI2-they stunk, but now they are the only thing that can keep up with the light armor.

L Arm
L arm
L arm
AC
combined armor bonus, with speed.

i think these are the best early.

 

[unmerged(12895)]

Disperse Armoured brigades within Armoured Corps.
Concentrate Armoured Divisions within Armoured Corps.
The question then is, concentrate Armoured Corps within an Army Group, or disperse Armoured Corps amongst Armies?

 

[pnt]

As far as cost to benefit the best early on is:

Arm
Arm
Arm
Eng
Since the Eng has 8 kph speed, and the combat bonuses over river or against a fort, plus the combined arems bonus.

And finally I have to build AC, I never did in HOI2-they stunk, but now they are the only thing that can keep up with the light armor.

L Arm
L arm
L arm
AC
combined armor bonus, with speed.

i think these are the best early.

Yes, if you want to replace infantry with support units, these are good choices! If you want to be proactive, however, you may also consider.
3 Arm + AC (34% soft) and 3 Arm + 2 SP Art (40% soft).
They give you very good concentration of firepower for breakthrough, and you can keep them throughout the war. You can then also early on decide if you go for AC techs, Art techs or both (2 each). Engineers are a little expensive in terms of bang for your buck in the long term.

 

[Nukeitall]

I prefer

Medium Armor
Medium Armor
SPART
SPART

or

Light Armor
Light Armor
Armored Car

I've found that #2 is good for cheap and mobile units, while #1 is more effective for breakthroughs and generalized combat.

 

[Rizzmond]

SH and H arm go quite well together, especially if you upgrade the engines and toughness only on the SH arm so it moves as fast as the H arm. But, its slow and is only really useful if you are facing a larger infantry army (and optimally on the defense).

 

[pnt]

I prefer

Medium Armor
Medium Armor
SPART
SPART

or

Light Armor
Light Armor
Armored Car

I've found that #2 is good for cheap and mobile units, while #1 is more effective for breakthroughs and generalized combat.

Well,
2 Arm + 2 SP Art gives you a softness of 45% and a max frontage of 10.
3 Arm + 2 SP Art gives you a softness of 40% and a max frontage of 12.
I would recommend the latter. Same goes for your L.Arm/AC division.

For those of you who like AC, why not try

3 Arm + 1 AC (34% soft, speed up to 9), and
3 L. Arm + SP R Art (40% soft, speed up to 11).

This way you skip Mot, Mec, and Art (lots of techs is you go through them, including doctrines). Could in fact be the most effective overall force composition.

 

[unmerged(45464)]

Early on as Germany I built

1x armor
1x L armor
1x motorized

and for secondary armor divisions
1x L armor
1x motorized
1x Armored Car

Not sure if it's good. Never played much beyond fall of France because of crash issues.

 

[pnt]

Well, it doesn't optimize your speed, hardness, and/or frontage, but it doesn't mean it is not fun to play with. However, why don't you try my suggestion above next time?

 

[jalapen0]

Great ideas in this thread, I'm subscribed.

 

[Zechariah]

You also have to consider how those tanks are going to get refueled all the way out in front of their infantry support. Tanks can only drive so far till they run out of gas and trucks cannot always ship the stuff to them. Many times tanks out ran their own fuel supply, getting stranded until logistics could catch up, losing any major surprise or advantage that was being gained by their thrust.

Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.

Painfully true. I found that out the hard way. I spent tons of ICs on my shiny new MArm+MArm+Mech+Mech+TD. They were fast and unstoppable... Until they ran out of gas. Driving through the Soviet Union with no supplies or fuel is painful, and that division gulped fuel faster than you could believe. The good thing about it is I could split it up into two divisions and it was still useful. Still learning the new supply system - it definitely adds a new facet to the game.

 

[unmerged(15146)]

Well,
2 Arm + 2 SP Art gives you a softness of 45% and a max frontage of 10.
3 Arm + 2 SP Art gives you a softness of 40% and a max frontage of 12.
I would recommend the latter. Same goes for your L.Arm/AC division.

For those of you who like AC, why not try

3 Arm + 1 AC (34% soft, speed up to 9), and
3 L. Arm + SP R Art (40% soft, speed up to 11).

This way you skip Mot, Mec, and Art (lots of techs is you go through them, including doctrines). Could in fact be the most effective overall force composition.

I'm sure the numbers add up, but any country that can afford to spam so much armour at the expense of motorised / leg infantry is surely wallowing in game-breaking amounts of IC......

Still, IC spamming is optional

 

[unmerged(152826)]

I just 2 arm and 2 mot or mec, if I get 5 brigs I get SPA.

 

[Forgiven]

In my current game, I have gone bit lunatic...
I ran into the issue of 'not enough man power, tons of IC'
I still have lot of borders I lack the usual 3x inf 'garrison' so I need to us the IC for something...
So my heavy breakthru division is now
4X Arm
1X Mot
(33% softness with CA bonus)


And trust me, it works :rofl: got ~15 ready now (may 1941), armor practical got to 100 pretty fast...
...And no, I didn't even IC spam 'that much' I built some, I'd say around 50, but that's a drop in the sea at the total ~850, and all occupation policies are collaboration to feed the manpower sink my borders are (it's a long stretch from Black sea to Barents sea even if the Baltic countries are not occupied, not to meantion the whole european coastline, even just ports).