Armies of the world(us and europe really)

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Raghnall

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My younger brother is in the US Army and is station in Bayern, Germany. His job is to play wargames against US and other nato countries. From his experience and the experience of his fellow unit members. The US military forces on average do horrible, so much as to repeat mistakes more than a dozen times in one battle. The other Nato countries don't do much better and are most of the time so bad that it is hard to describe. The only European nation that even presents a good fight is Holland, mainly because they follow no real set of tactics and are hard to predict because they fight in such an unorganized fashion. To let all of you know his team plays as guerilla forces/combined arms in these mock battles.
 

peo

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I only know about the Swedish army... havn't been in contact with others.
But generaly the armies tend to have to little money compared to air-forces and navies, big shiny planes are more fun than dirty grunts :(
One of the reasons why they don't perform well could be that they arn't used to the terrain, i know that it can be a big difference at least in Sweden it was heaven when i came to Boden and saw all those hills to put my units on :) compared to the flat terrain of Uppland, it could be somethin like that but the opposite.
 

Aetius

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The US forces have a big advantage over most countries in the following areas: Medical Evacuation, Air Support, Artillery, Naval support and modern equipment.
The US Army's training of grunts I have heard from ex-military observers is not very good, too much dependency on officers and not enough independent initiative according to them. One of them cited a traffic accident where everyone followed drill but no one took decisions about e.g. rescueing the jeep that had driven off the road into a ditch, he took command and, despite being a Swedish officer, they were more than willing to follow his orders. However the advantages provided by the above more than enough compensates this.
The Swedish Army is supposed to relatively well trained but lacks most of the advantages the US forces have. This is basically true of most of the NATO forces I have heard, but I can't really say how objective it is.

The best army, as far as training and use of combined arms in view of resources and so on is supposed to be the Israeli Army.
The best guarilla outfit is the LTTE, the Tamil Tigers.
Both of the above are outside of Europe and the US though.
 

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I my own experience, the most important reason armed forces are lacking in competence or equipment is that whoever makes the relevant decisions do not take the business of preparing for war seriously. I myself was conscripted into my homeland's (a certain fringe state bordering Sweden, Finland and Russia) air defense forces (air defense artillery branch). We are organised into batallion-sized grups and supposed to defend to major air bases against aerial attack. The greatest problem with the "first-time-service" is that though it is supposed to last a full year (often shortened to save money), probably only 5 to 10 % of the time is spent on training or exercises. The rest of the time the conscripts are in the forces are spent as menial labourers or simply being bone idle. In the air defense forces and the navy the personell is on average less physically fit at the end of the service period than at the beginning.

I served the first half of my service (abut 5 months) at first at an air base 2h20m by bus from my hometown. In this period we usually had training to fill the schedule, so there was rarely any great amount of boredom. Later I was transferred without good reason (I suspect some officers wanted to get rid of me) to a "school unit" (They trained both NCOs and officers in the operation of air defense euipment) in the southeastern fringe of our country, more than 1000 km from home. There I was set to do a small amount of simplistic office work which required hardly any skill at all, and I was very bored indeed. In this period we never once trained in basic soldier skills like shooting, first aid and NBC-protection, though I participated in two exercises in which I used the "specific" skills we were trained in during the first half of the service (doing the menial tasks in the group command post). In the course of my entire service I fired less than four clips (80 rounds) from my G-3 taken together during all our shooting range sessions. I never received training in the use of the MG-3 machine gun or M72 rocket launcher, though a set of training regulations I read seemed to indicate that this was mandatory. All in all my service taught me only to endure great amounts of boredom and to despise all military organisations. Aside from that it left me and all the others in my unit grossly unsuited for actual war service.

People I have spoken to who served in other branches of service have experienced much the same thing. The high command cites lack of funds as the reason for not having more training or exercises. Yet they do find the funds to feed, clothe and house thousands of idle and unproductive young men for several months of the year. I served for 10 months (which is certainly preferable to serving 12), but for the amount of training and exercises I got, four months would have been more than sufficient, with the added benefit of being less demoralising and costing the taxpayers less. The powers that be seem to be most interested in raising units for peacekeeping (Bosnia, Kosovo) and sending special forces and mine-clearing engineers to Afghanistan, both of which are seen to heighten our country's prestige abroad

It is also woth mentioning that our personal equipment were quite outdated at the time (It even included an uttely worthless bayonet, but not any useful cutting tools), again because of lack of funds. For the same reason IFVs purchased in the 1990s have not been issued live ammunition for their 30 mm cannons. Morale is further decreased by having to endure dimwitted sergeants and far too self-important officers. If there is ever a real war in our country, we can only hope that they will be even less suited for battle than our own forces
 
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Originally posted by Observateur
I my own experience, the most important reason armed forces are lacking in competence or equipment is that whoever makes the relevant decisions do not take the business of preparing for war seriously. I myself was conscripted into my homeland's (a certain fringe state bordering Sweden, Finland and Russia) air defense forces (air defense artillery branch). We are organised into batallion-sized grups and supposed to defend to major air bases against aerial attack. The greatest problem with the "first-time-service" is that though it is supposed to last a full year (often shortened to save money), probably only 5 to 10 % of the time is spent on training or exercises. The rest of the time the conscripts are in the forces are spent as menial labourers or simply being bone idle. In the air defense forces and the navy the personell is on average less physically fit at the end of the service period than at the beginning.

I served the first half of my service (abut 5 months) at first at an air base 2h20m by bus from my hometown. In this period we usually had training to fill the schedule, so there was rarely any great amount of boredom. Later I was transferred without good reason (I suspect some officers wanted to get rid of me) to a "school unit" (They trained both NCOs and officers in the operation of air defense euipment) in the southeastern fringe of our country, more than 1000 km from home. There I was set to do a small amount of simplistic office work which required hardly any skill at all, and I was very bored indeed. In this period we never once trained in basic soldier skills like shooting, first aid and NBC-protection, though I participated in two exercises in which I used the "specific" skills we were trained in during the first half of the service (doing the menial tasks in the group command post). In the course of my entire service I fired less than four clips (80 rounds) from my G-3 taken together during all our shooting range sessions. I never received training in the use of the MG-3 machine gun or M72 rocket launcher, though a set of training regulations I read seemed to indicate that this was mandatory. All in all my service taught me only to endure great amounts of boredom and to despise all military organisations. Aside from that it left me and all the others in my unit grossly unsuited for actual war service.

People I have spoken to who served in other branches of service have experienced much the same thing. The high command cites lack of funds as the reason for not having more training or exercises. Yet they do find the funds to feed, clothe and house thousands of idle and unproductive young men for several months of the year. I served for 10 months (which is certainly preferable to serving 12), but for the amount of training and exercises I got, four months would have been more than sufficient, with the added benefit of being less demoralising and costing the taxpayers less. The powers that be seem to be most interested in raising units for peacekeeping (Bosnia, Kosovo) and sending special forces and mine-clearing engineers to Afghanistan, both of which are seen to heighten our country's prestige abroad

It is also woth mentioning that our personal equipment were quite outdated at the time (It even included an uttely worthless bayonet, but not any useful cutting tools), again because of lack of funds. For the same reason IFVs purchased in the 1990s have not been issued live ammunition for their 30 mm cannons. Morale is further decreased by having to endure dimwitted sergeants and far too self-important officers. If there is ever a real war in our country, we can only hope that they will be even less suited for battle than our own forces

So, Russians pretty much can start invasion tomorrow?:D
 

peo

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The only nation of the nordic ones which realy take an intrest in their military is Finland. I did my service in the air defence to had similar experience before the soldiers got there they didn't know what to do whit us, so we tagged along with the people who would become section leaders.
Much of it comes from tha lack of money but there is acctually no lack of money i guess Norway have a similar structure as Sweden. My regiment were forced to pay horrendus rent for the training area and barracks :(. FortV (the organization who own all military land and houses) charges enourmus rent they have to make a profit . :rolleyes:
But i got to shoot more at least and learn all the weapons, but my soldiers didn't get to learn the machinegun all of them that is.
 

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Having taken part in numerous military "war games" in the past I can tell you that they have always resulted in big "goat fucks" (a technical naval term; as to its meaning just think about trying to fuck a goat:D ). You needn't worry about the abysmal record organized forces have in these exercises. They are used to train, get the men experience in situations calculated to be much more dire than they realistically will face. The opposing forces often spend much more time being "opposers" than the green units they face ever spend on being, well, a military organization. Red Flag in Nevada or the "bogies" at Top Gun are the cream of the crop. They have to be or the ones they are training wouldn't learn anything.

The proof is in the pudding. What happens when these units actually "see the elephant." From recent history, I'd say the thrashings these units got in "war games" might have actually taught them something.
 

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I have a friend in the German navy. He was second in command of one of the small German attack subs. They took part in a NATO naval excercise in the Atlantic and they had to hunt down American nuclear subs (SSN's can't remember the class). He said that they were so easily fooled when the much quieter German sub disguised herself as a whale.

Also, he said that the chronically underfunded Russian navy likes to send her ships into NATO ports with empty tanks, so that the host nation has to pay for their fuel if they want them to leave again.

Israel probably has the best (and most experienced) army, though Swizterland isn't too bad either.
 

TeutonicKnight

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I wouldn't say the main aim of "wargaming" is to train better and get better, but more of train togather understand better. When I was in the Marines from 1992-96 we did several full fledged Nato operations and a few more intra-service maneuvers. I'll be the first to tell you that the worst ever jointex that I could recall came just outside of Rota, Spain. Nobody had a clue as to what to do, we spent 4 hours trying to meet a Spanish unit and instead ran into the opposing team, which touched off a fight that was not supposed to happen. A 10 minute firefight...followed by the opposing team withdrawing taking heavy casualties(we could tell by all the beeps from the Mils gear) to few for us. As we were sitting there slapping and congradulating each other for we had just woefully annihilated an enemy battalion. We got a communication alert from our Commander, seems the team we intercepted was actually the Spanish battlion we were supposed to link up with. They had been intercepted by a smaller unit that was supposed to slow them down and since they were late, four hours late, we thought they had ran into problems and we were gonna meet them at the secondary point.


I'm gonna go off topic to tell you about the most funny moment I had during an exercise. We had spent all week training for a 3 day exercise against a split battalion. It was to start on Friday night at 1900 hours and last untill one of the opposing communications tents were captured or Sunday 1500. Since my squad was last in line to go to the AP (Amour Piercing) range we were the last to get done before start time and were hurried.

Almost an hour late we were given our orders, I don't know exactly what they were, but I did know were were to join 3rd platoon as a reserve/guard squad. We were ordered to set perimetor around a hill that was surrounded on three sides by a swamp that stunk to high heaven. We got to the hill and as any Marine will tell you, we didn't take the easy way, LT. decided that to walk around to the open side would require too much time..that we should just huff it through the swamp. We got the first few men across the swamp and the last of our squad was trudgeing through the mud when we heard the familiar sound of an M-16 poping off followed by the roar of an M-60. Me an a Mexican friend named Jesus Garcia had just pulled away from the squad to relieve ourselves. Just as I put Mr. Winky back in my pants I got shot, without so much as firing a shot. Garcia was worse off than I was as he got drilled while holding himself. The worst part of it was I swear I heard laughing.

I would say these exercises are more for how to interact with each other more than how well you actually do.
 

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Originally posted by TeutonicKnight
I wouldn't say the main aim of "wargaming" is to train better and get better, but more of train togather understand better.

You're absolutely right with regard to multi-national training exercises which tend to be expensive "get to know you" sessions. I wasn't clear, but what I was refering to was the hard core wargames our carriers and airwings had to go through periodically. The result was always predictable. The front line squadrons with the most up to date fighters and equipment got their asses handed to them by the opposer squadrons flying antique A-5s, F-4s, F-20s(the export version of the F-5) and various "secured" Soviet equipement. It's still the man, not the machine, that makes an effective fighter. We lost bad, but we learned a lot.
 

unmerged(7406)

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Originally posted by Crook


So, Russians pretty much can start invasion tomorrow?:D

Certainly, if they could handle the "stability hit" and other consequences brought about by making war on the atlantic treaty states. Though they probably would have even lower morale than our pitiful excuses for defensive forces.
 

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I spent my then-mandatory 10 months in the French army in 1992. I somewhat knew what to expect from friends' tales but it still was quite an experience.

Granted, I managed to get a rather comfy assignment - supply branch, assistant librarian at one of the numerous institutes at the Ecole Militaire.

It all started with six weeks of sort-of boot camp where I fired a grand total of 12 cartridges and spent 2 nights camping (there's no other word for it).

Even such simple and limited activities the French army managed to botch: the rifle I fired had its sight adjusted for too short a range - I had to shoot high to hit - and the firing instructor never believed me. There seemed to be only one guy in the whole battalion who knew the Famas used standard NATO 5.56 ammo, btw.

As to the camping trip, when we arrived on site, another unit was already sitting where we were planned to stay and it took whoever was in charge about 2 hours to sort out the extraordinarily complicated mess of finding another place to camp in a large, basically empty, well-tended forest.
Before going back to barracks, a 2-hour march with full (supply-branch style, meaning 20 kg rucksack) kit was planned. The NCO in charge of our platoon managed to get lost (her map-reading skills were apparently about those of a 4 year old) in a forest criss-crossed with hiking trails and we were @ 3 hours late at the assembly point.

That's about the total sum of military training I received (I was off sick the morning NBC training was scheduled so I didn't get any).

The insitute I was assigned in Paris was a 1-year mandatory "strategy and international affairs" course for ltc's and colonels who were expected to get their stars one day.

Oh my! were they bright!

I remember explaining the differences between French and German armored doctrines in 1940 to an army full colonel who was under the impression that the Germans had won because they had more tanks than the French.

Another one was enthused by an article in a (French) defense magazine on how De Gaulle had been a genius because he was the first to understand the political importance of cities in war, this realisation leading to the retaking of Strasbourg in 1944 - I'm not making any of this up.
So I told the guy about such battles as Stalingrad, Verdun, etc... and IT GOT HIM CONFUSED. No kidding!

Another one about Stalingrad: I was on duty on 19 November 1992, and I can testify that not a single one of the 40 or so students had any inkling that it was the 50th anniversary of that battle. From my conversations of that day, I suspect none of them had even a rough idea of why and how that battle was fought. Note that at that time, the Russians were still regarded as the #1 potential ennemy by the French army and those were the guys who'd be tasked with directing French operations should war happen... know thy ennemy? what for?

Oh, should I mention how I once explained to my NCO what an AK-74 was?
 

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Very amusing indeed. Was that the same NCO who got lost in the forest? I had little experience with personel of higher ranks, but I would like to relate how our armed forces create NCOs. Most people reading this probably know that in many countries the armed forces have professional, long-serving senior NCOs (In the UK the are apparently referred to as "ratings" and are widely regarded as "the backbone of the army") responsible for training new recruits and running the units on a daily basis. The fact that they serve for quite some time at least gives them the benefit of long experience, regardless of how good or bad their ability may be.

Our forces used to have such personel, but they were abolished in 1932 for reasons unknown to me. Nowadays the ranks go like this: private, corporal, sergeant, second lieutenant, lieutenant, captain, major, lt. colonel, colonel, brigadier, major-general, lieutenant-general and general. There are two ways to become a sergeant (excluding academic NCOs): either you enter NCO school, which last for one year (most of them do this after they finish their basic one-year service, but this is not mandatory; one can enroll directly), or you can enter a "UB" (conscripted NCO) course after finishing the basic training during the "first-time service". This course last for about 3/4ths of the first time service, after which those "UB-korporaler" who have shown themselves to be incompetent at the simple tasks they have been set to, are offered to continue their service as full sergeants.

Now, the important thing to consider here is that in order to enter the aforementioned NCO school, you need to have the kind of upper secondary school exams which qualify one for university studies, thereby excluding a lot of uneducated louts. Additionally, there are always far more applicants to these schools than there are "seats", therefore, and this is confirmed by my own experience, these NCOs are usually much more intelligent and competent than their "UB" counterparts, who are mostly those with the physique, but not the wits to enter NCO school.

I any case, these two types of sergeants, with at most two years of service behind them and often only one, are responsible for training and leading the conscripts. If you take into consideration that a lot of these people have a lot of growing up to do, and that the conscripts usually are not enthusiastic about their lot, then it should come as no surprise that morale is rather low. After a year of service sergeants are eligible for promotion to second lieutenant, and after that they either quit the forces altogether, assume an clerical position or go on to military academy. In any case training of conscripts are always left to the most inexperienced and immature of officers.

I would also like to tell you more about the state of our equipment: I was issued a G-3 rifle several years older than me. This particular weapon was rather worn down, which led to the thing jamming because the spent cartridges did not eject properly from the chamber. Another time, the rifle was rendered unusable because the bolt holding the "recoil spring" in place came of the rod it was mounted on. This happened on the firing range, but you can probably imagine the consequences if this had happened in battle. It would be rather humiliating to get killed or captured just because your weapon ceases to function through no fault of your own.

I could also mention the curious practice of putting lower physical demands on those of the personnel who are lacking the Y cromosome, even though they are set to the same tasks as their XY-cromosomed counterparts. The decisionmakers seem to assume that euipment weighs less and marching distances somehow become shorter based on ones biological characteristics. Another curious practice is to issue different types of personal weapons (rifles, submachine guns or pistols) based upon rank, and not upon the intended task of the person in question. If you are a lieutenant, you are issued an MP-5, even though you spend most of the time in the field, where a rifle would be more suitable. If you are a "petty squire" in a command post in a bunker like me, you are issued a G-3, even though an MP-5 would be more suitable (and easier to carry) in this particular setting.
 

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In sweden we used to have NCO's but they abolished themselves :rolleyes: they demanded to high salaries so they were made stop lieutentants :) they got the fun task of making sure the soldiers in the training companies got food, that the major in charge of the companies were ehere they should and so on.
Now all our NCO's are conscripts picked during the testing and get a longer training depending on the task they are going to have and we also have conscript commioned officers (2nd LT) hey serve as platoon commanders (second in charge) and certain specialist positions. It works quite fine actually to have it that way, the soldiers have respect for the conscript commanders as both of them are forced to be there.

As for equipment and such most of my things were in good shape, exept the uniform. The age of a rifle isn't that important if it is well kept, i have used a rifle from 1903 worked just fine :)
We only got one personal weapon in the army now its the ak5 or FNC.
 
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w_mullender

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Luckily we have abolished conscription.:D
Although it was very good for card skills. Now we only have a professional army, which seems to get better (especially the elite units).
 

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Originally posted by peo
In sweden we used to have NCO's but they abolished themselves :rolleyes: they demanded to high salaries so they were made stop lieutentants :) they got the fun task of making sure the soldiers in the training companies got food, that the major in charge of the companies were ehere they should and so on.

LOL :D .

That reminds me of a story I heard while in Australia about the Aussie army going on strike because the quatermaster general cut out appropriations for vegemite! Don't know if its true or not, but it made for a good story.

More seriously, a lot of the horror stories here make me doubt my long held belief in mandatory service. I don't think its possible to have an effective army, navy, etc. without professional NCOs (E-6 and above). I get the feeling that many countries may not really be that concerned about it since they really don't foresee ever having to use their armed forces. Thus, they feel free to socially experiment.
 

peo

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It is possible to lack profesional NCO's and have an effective military. It all depends on what the nation wants to do wiht it's military. If it is supposed as the Swedish to only defend our territory it works fine but if it is like the american or brittish supposed to be used for power projection then a conscript military won't work becouse people realy dislike offensive wars.

Just for the record as i think i said earlier i want Sweden to have a professional military as our tasks have changed to international duties which requires a professional military.

BTW what is vegemite?????
 
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Originally posted by Linus


I want to know too!

Apparently there´s some British variant to, "Marmite" sounds like building material ;)

The yeast extract spread first appeared in 1923. It was made from many essential ingredients apart from yeast extract.

In 1918, the war delayed imports of popular yeast extracts. Walker saw an opening in the market and pounced. Fred enlisted the help of a brilliant young chemist, Dr Cyril P Callister, to work on a yeast extract and a cheese that had a long shelf life. After many attempts, they developed a spread, and Vegemite was born.
 

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Originally posted by peo
BTW what is vegemite?????

A popular Aussie breakfast delicacy allegedly scraped from the bottom of beer vats which has all the consistancy and taste of axel grease.

Troopers' description may be more accurate than mine, but I gave you more of the "essence" of what it really is. Bon appetit.:D