Armageddon 1.3 Beta 2 (24/04/2009) is now up (general comments/questions only please)

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Red Ant

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I think I just found a bug ... or maybe it's a known issue; I'm not sure. I (playing as the U.S.) just captured British-owned but Japanese-occupied Calcutta and based a couple of Tac groups there. Then when the Brits waltzed in to reclaim what is rightfully theirs, I lost all air units I had based in Calcutta. :( And no, they were not teleported to the redeployment pool - they were GONE. I guess the game handles an ally reclaiming control of his territory exactly the same as an actual enemy force seizing it. :-\
 

son of liberty

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I think I just found a bug ... or maybe it's a known issue; I'm not sure. I (playing as the U.S.) just captured British-owned but Japanese-occupied Calcutta and based a couple of Tac groups there. Then when the Brits waltzed in to reclaim what is rightfully theirs, I lost all air units I had based in Calcutta. :( And no, they were not teleported to the redeployment pool - they were GONE. I guess the game handles an ally reclaiming control of his territory exactly the same as an actual enemy force seizing it. :-\
It is an old bug.
 

ozman2

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It is not impossible. I use the "very emu" settings(the ai gets all of the vh bonuses, while the human gets normal settings). Even with the extra troops, BP was achieved before winter. I started in may as soon as the mud cleared.
Thank you for the report. There remains the issue, however as to whether the improved AI makes the Eastern Front War come out ahistorically if played by AI-AI. If so, perhaps some tweaks can be applied for the AI only. Also there's the issue of whether AI event 20007 (ai_ger.txt) needs to be tweaked to allow Germany to invade the Soviet Union with a slightly lower land percentage. But if they do they should get some surprise effects.
 
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unmerged(74599)

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It's just an idea to restore the balance which was inadvertently upset by the improved Soviet build AI.

Heh? Restore the balance? I can't imagine not flattening the Soviet Union, as Germany, in any version of the game I have played. Mind you, I haven't played Germany in a 36 for a long time, mostly because it was so tedious, wiping out the helpless Soviet Union.

If the AI is having problems making its historical targets, against ai SU, then something should be done, but I think in the best case scenario work should be done on the German AI in order to improve its performance, while keeping the Soviet Union as a tough opponent for the German player.
 
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son of liberty

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If the AI is having problems making its historical targets, against ai SU, then something should be done, but I think in the best case scenario work should be done on the German AI in order to improve its performance, while making keeping the Soviet Union as a tough opponent for the German player.
I agree 100%
 

ozman2

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Well in that case maybe the Barbarossa event can be an AI only event. I do want to know, however, one way or another--1) Does the beta-2 patch cause an increased frequency of Germany not being able to start Barbarossa because of not being able to meet the land_percentage requirement in event 20007 (file ai_ger.txt)? 2) Does AI Germany get defeated too soon by AI Soviet Union? If either of these is the case then some overhaul is necessary.
 

Pioniere

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Molotov–Ribbentrop not working right

Is this an error in the game?? Or did I something wrong under the installation of the new patch?
I am a bit frustrated about this game now I started in the 1938 with Germany. All seemed normally and patched until I got the Molotov–Ribbentrop event I got the historical variant with USSR that they accepted but under the conquest of Poland no participation of Poland happened. Now in the mid 1940 the soviet dow me. They broke the non aggression pact in late October 39. this is the second time this happened.

Now its good night for me.zzz
 

unmerged(74599)

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Well in that case maybe the Barbarossa event can be an AI only event. I do want to know, however, one way or another--1) Does the beta-2 patch cause an increased frequency of Germany not being able to start Barbarossa because of not being able to meet the land_percentage requirement in event 20007 (file ai_ger.txt)? 2) Does AI Germany get defeated too soon by AI Soviet Union? If either of these is the case then some overhaul is necessary.

Just decrease the land percentage for the event for starters, then rationalize the ai tech parameters. That should push it over the top. I don't know if it is being defeated to often. Is it?

How often should it be defeated?

50% of the time, 70% of the time?

By when?
 
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ozman2

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Excellent questions. Cueball, would you like to recommend a 5% or 10% decrease in the land_percentage requirements for event 20007? I know that a good Soviet player can defeat Germany in 41 or 42, but I'd say that in AI vs AI play, if Germany starts Barbarossa historically they should be able to at least last until mid-1944 most of the time. If they are getting killed before then on a regular basis then something is wrong. They should be able to advance the first 3-6 months or so, and stall somewhere outside of Moscow. The Soviets should start to turn the tide sometime in the last half of 42.
I'd say probably the ideal fix is that if the land percentage requirement is lowered and Germany meets the new requirement but not the old one (or just barely meets the old one) then they get surprise effects from June to September in the first year (AI-AI only). If you agree with that idea I'll write up a modified ai_ger.txt file incorporating these changes.
 
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unmerged(74599)

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Surprisingly, though I often come across as a critic, I think that Johan's game engine can take care of itself with more subtle direction than that. It is really a matter of how much time one has to commit to it in terms of programming.

I would first look at something simple, like how much tech is oriented to land unit tech, and production. Then work up from there. I guess I am a bit of a purist, and would argue for changes to the base AI parameters.

Even a small change in how much effort the AI puts into land doctrines might have a substantial impact on its success ratio.
 

Modo

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The problem is with resources. The USSR has so much of everything that just by improving the USSR AI, it was made almost impossible for the German AI to go east. Remember that it doesn't know about brakthroughs and encirclements, and better builds don't do squat once it runs out of manpower. If you want a better Barbarossa, you need to give the German AI some kind of an artificial head start. This is what I meant in my previous post.
 

son of liberty

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How about a manpower bonus for germany ai as event when the barbarosa set is enabled? AI ONLY!
Add that to cueballs idea, and maybe a starting bp for the 43 land doc techs for german ai only. With the bp's can the ai be given instruction to "rush" at least 1 of those 2 techs?
 

ozman2

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another idea is (German AI vs Soviet AI only)
-->(Soviet event)
command = { type = delete_unit which = -1 }
command = { type = delete_unit which = -1 }
command = { type = delete_unit which = -1 }
command = { type = delete_unit which = -1 }
command = { type = delete_unit which = -1 }
which would happen ONLY if AI Germany invaded AI USSR with a relatively low force ratio.
 

son of liberty

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another idea is (German AI vs Soviet AI only)
-->(Soviet event)
command = { type = delete_unit which = -1 }
command = { type = delete_unit which = -1 }
command = { type = delete_unit which = -1 }
command = { type = delete_unit which = -1 }
command = { type = delete_unit which = -1 }
which would happen ONLY if AI Germany invaded AI USSR with a relatively low force ratio.
The downside to that would be a weaker soviet and germany when my americans ge3t to europe to destroy them both.;) My personal preference would be to strengthen them instead of weakening them.
 

ozman2

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well I'd really want switch_allegiance but the problem with that is that the general defects along with the unit. Seems as if every suggestion as to HOW to fix this upsets someone for some reason. Think I'll just go with my original plan for my own modding and let the patch team do what it wants.
1)
################
# Germany invades Russian
#############################################
event = {
id = 20007
random = no
country = GER

trigger = {
ai = yes
NOT = { ispuppet = GER }
OR = {
month = 6
AND = {
day = 21
NOT = { day = 22 }
}
}
AND = {
OR = {
AND = {
owned = { province = 488 data = GER }
control = { province = 488 data = GER }
garrison = { country = GER province = 488 type = land size = 9 area = no }
}
AND = {
NOT = { owned = { province = 488 data = GER } }
NOT = { control = { province = 488 data = GER } }
}
}
OR = {
AND = {
owned = { province = 489 data = GER }
control = { province = 489 data = GER }
garrison = { country = GER province = 489 type = land size = 9 area = no }
}
AND = {
NOT = { owned = { province = 489 data = GER } }
NOT = { control = { province = 489 data = GER } }
}
}
OR = {
AND = {
owned = { province = 487 data = GER }
control = { province = 487 data = GER }
garrison = { country = GER province = 487 type = land size = 9 area = no }
}
AND = {
NOT = { owned = { province = 487 data = GER } }
NOT = { control = { province = 487 data = GER } }
}
}
OR = {
AND = {
owned = { province = 509 data = GER }
control = { province = 509 data = GER }
garrison = { country = GER province = 509 type = land size = 9 area = no }
}
AND = {
NOT = { owned = { province = 509 data = GER } }
NOT = { control = { province = 509 data = GER } }
}
}
OR = {
AND = {
owned = { province = 510 data = GER }
control = { province = 510 data = GER }
garrison = { country = GER province = 510 type = land size = 9 area = no }
}
AND = {
NOT = { owned = { province = 510 data = GER } }
NOT = { control = { province = 510 data = GER } }
}
}
OR = {
AND = {
owned = { province = 206 data = GER }
control = { province = 206 data = GER }
garrison = { country = GER province = 206 type = land size = 9 area = no }
}
AND = {
NOT = { owned = { province = 206 data = GER } }
NOT = { control = { province = 206 data = GER } }
}
}
}
local_flag = GERInvadeRussia
NOT = { local_flag = GERInvadePoland }
NOT = { local_flag = GERInvadeYugoslavia }
NOT = { lost_national = { country = GER value = 2 } }
control = { province = 56 data = GER } # Paris
NOT = { war = { country = GER country = SOV } }
NOT = { war = { country = GER country = SPA } }
NOT = { war = { country = GER country = SPR } }
NOT = { war = { country = GER country = YUG } }
OR = {
land_percentage = { country = SOV value = 0.72 } #10% decrease
AND = {
land_percentage = { country = SOV value = 0.63 } #10% decrease
alliance = { country = GER country = ROM }
alliance = { country = GER country = HUN }
}
}
OR = {
NOT = { war= { country = GER country = GRE } }
AND = {
war= { country = GER country = GRE }
NOT = { control = { province = 401 data = GRE } } # Athens
NOT = { control = { province = 393 data = GRE } }
NOT = { control = { province = 395 data = GRE } }
NOT = { control = { province = 394 data = GRE } }
NOT = { control = { province = 402 data = GRE } }
NOT = { control = { province = 403 data = GRE } }
NOT = { control = { province = 392 data = GRE } }
NOT = { control = { province = 412 data = GRE } }
NOT = { control = { province = 411 data = GRE } }
NOT = { control = { province = 410 data = GRE } }
}
}
OR = {
alliance = { country = GER country = POL }
alliance = { country = SOV country = POL }
NOT = { exists = POL }
}
OR = {
AND = {
month = 3 # April
NOT = { month = 4 } # May
random = 10
}
AND = {
month = 4 # May
NOT = { month = 5 } # June
random = 20
}
AND = {
month = 5 # June
NOT = { month = 6 } # July
random = 90
}
AND = {
month = 6 # July
NOT = { month = 7 } # August
random = 80
}
AND = {
month = 7 # August
NOT = { month = 8 } # September
random = 20
}
}
}

name = "AI_EVENT"
style = 0

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1941 }
offset = 1
deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1963 }

action_a = { #Russian Campaign
command = { type = war which = SOV }
command = { type = sleepevent which = 20013 }
command = { type = sleepevent which = 20010 }
command = { type = ai which = "switch/GER_Russia.ai" }
command = { type = local_clrflag which = GERInvadeRussia }
command = { type = local_clrflag which = GERStandardFront }
}
}
2)
New AI events
# Barbarossa fox for 1.3--activate special effects if German AI goes to war with reduced power
# from revised event 20007
event = { # fix for 1.3
id = 20052
random = no
country = GER

trigger = {
ai = yes
ai = SOV
event = 20007
NOT = {
OR = {
land_percentage = { country = SOV value = 0.82 }
AND = {
land_percentage = { country = SOV value = 0.72 }
alliance = { country = GER country = ROM }
alliance = { country = GER country = HUN }
}
}
}
}

name = "AI_EVENT"

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1936 }
offset = 1
deathdate = { day = 29 month = july year = 1942 }

action_a = {
command = { type = local_setflag which = GER_surprise_effects }
}
}
# initial confusion Barbarosa
event = { # fix for 1.3
id = 20053
random = no
country = GER

trigger = {
ai = yes
local_flag = GER_surprise_effects
month = 6 # must be after spring mud
NOT = {
war = { country = GER country = USA }
month = 8 # august is too late
}
}

name = "AI_EVENT"

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1936 }
offset = 1
deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1955 }

action_a = {
command = { type = local_clrflag which = GER_surprise_effects }
command = { type = ambush value = 30 }
command = { type = surprise which = land value = 30 }
command = { type = surprise which = air value = 30 }
}
}
# the Red Army recovers
event = { # fix for 1.3
id = 20054
random = no
country = GER

trigger = {
event = 20053
month = 9
OR = {
random = 10
month = 10
}
}

name = "AI_EVENT"

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1936 }
offset = 3
deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1955 }

action_a = {

command = { type = ambush value = -30 }
command = { type = surprise which = land value = -30 }
command = { type = surprise which = air value = -30 }
}
}
# if war is started late you don't get the effects next year
event = { # fix for 1.3
id = 20055
random = no
country = GER

trigger = {
local_flag = GER_surprise_effects
month = 11
}

name = "AI_EVENT"

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1936 }
offset = 3
deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1955 }

action_a = {

command = { type = local_clrflag which = GER_surprise_effects }
}
}
 

unmerged(74599)

Nexus 6
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The only thing that should be lowered really is the land percentage of German to Russian troops in the Declare war event, imo. In EIR, I actually decreased the number of troops required in "Garrison" at the Soviet border, because the system is set up to create more historical level of troops, but that should be irrelevant in the vanilla game.

In EIR, the countries that may be in the Axis at the start of Barbarossa is far less certain, and might even include Japan, so, the trigger is set up to include a-historical alliance paterns and so I also created a complex formula for the number of Allies the German's have at the time it wants to attack, as well as land percentage.

I would say no to adding any AI specific surprise event. I actually agree with the concept of the "surprise event" in theory, but would choose it over the GDE malus that the SU gets at the begining of Barbarossa. But, changing the whole GDE structure would have an impact on the strategic abilities of the SU prior to the German attack, in particular in situations where a human player chooses a-historical early war options, and so on. So, unless the whole system were to be re-written from top to bottom, I think it would be best to leave it alone at this point, since we have no idea how such a change would impact the game overall.

First of all one should remember that the SU "AI" is already nerfed at the start of Barbarossa, with very high passivity, which acounts for some of the "surprise" effect you are all ready talking about.

Secondly, there might be some simple changes to the German Barbarossa ai, which could be made very simply without tampering with the event system.

For example (German Barbarrossa "AI" for the first year is set up with the following front conditions in the "GER_Russia.ai" file):

Code:
front = { 
	recklessness 		= 1 # 0-3
	distrib_vs_ai 		= offensive
	distrib_vs_human 	= reactive

	base_attack_odds 	= 1.1
	min_attack_odds 	= 1.0 
	max_attack_odds 	= 2.0 

    enemy_handicap = { } 
    passivity = { } 
}

One could modify these as follows to make the German AI even more aggressive:
Code:
front = { 
	recklessness 		= 2 # 0-3
	distrib_vs_ai 		= offensive
	distrib_vs_human 	= reactive

	base_attack_odds 	= 1.0
	min_attack_odds 	= 0.9
	max_attack_odds 	= 2.0 

    enemy_handicap = { } 
    passivity = { } 
}

One could also try "op_offensive" instead of "offensive".

Thirdly, it is a little known fact that the German 1942 AI for Russia is nerfed, I assume in order to pacify the AI in order to ensure more historical results. In other words the German AI is basically programmed to succeed only in 1941, or never, even if it does well.

From the "front" conditions from the "GER_Russia_Second_Year.ai":
Code:
###################################
# Ground Combat, Leaders and Garrisons
###################################
front = { 
	recklessness 		= 1 # 0-3
	distrib_vs_ai 		= reactive
	distrib_vs_human 	= reactive

	enemy_reinf_days	= 6
	reserve_prop		= 0.1
	panic_ratio_vs_ai	= 2.5
	panic_ratio_vs_human	= 2.5
	base_attack_odds	= 1.3
	min_attack_odds		= 1.1
	max_attack_odds		= 3.0
	reinforce_odds		= 1.2
	withdraw_odds		= 0.6

      	enemy_handicap = { } 
      	passivity = { } 
}

These could be changed to make the German AI more aggressive in 1942:

Code:
###################################
# Ground Combat, Leaders and Garrisons
###################################
front = { 
	recklessness 		= 1 # 0-3
	distrib_vs_ai 		= offensive
	distrib_vs_human 	= reactive

	enemy_reinf_days	= 6
	reserve_prop		= 0.1
	panic_ratio_vs_ai	= 2.5
	panic_ratio_vs_human	= 2.5
	base_attack_odds	= 1.2
	min_attack_odds		= 1.0
	max_attack_odds		= 3.0
	reinforce_odds		= 1.2
	withdraw_odds		= 0.6

      	enemy_handicap = { } 
      	passivity = { } 
}

Starting with those kinds of changes and then tuning the AI from there is a much simpler and subtle approach than changing the event system.

The problem is with resources. The USSR has so much of everything that just by improving the USSR AI, it was made almost impossible for the German AI to go east. Remember that it doesn't know about brakthroughs and encirclements, and better builds don't do squat once it runs out of manpower. If you want a better Barbarossa, you need to give the German AI some kind of an artificial head start. This is what I meant in my previous post.

Actually it does know about breakthroughs and encirclements, and there are parameters which tell the ai how agressive it should be in closing pockets. It breaks through because it can be told to focus on the weak spots in the line, in order to create breakthrough, which then creates pockets, which the AI will then try and close.
 
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ozman2

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Cueball and others,
I've submitted my suggestions, and of course there are other ways such as an AI-only temporary reduction in Soviet max_org and morale. Please note that these should occur ONLY in the event Germany is attacking due to lower more permissive thresholds and will not apply if the previous thresholds are exceeded more than minimally. The sole purpose is to maintain game balance in AI-AI play, and of course no method is perfect due to the limitations of the game engine. It's an insurance policy to keep us from having to spend years adjusting the game balance like we had to with respect to the China vs Japan War.

The patch team is of course free to either accept or reject my ideas, modify them, or come up with an alternate plan. However, I'd like to recommend we move on to other subjects and let the patch team decide.
 

unmerged(74599)

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Sure. Yours is a good suggestion. My point is that there is still some latitude in the German AI that could be used to give it more go.
 
Last edited:

ozman2

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Sure I'll look at your ideas.
 
Last edited:

Pugmak

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I gots me some questions regarding French AI. Has it been changed or am I just getting stoopider in my old age?

The reason I ask is because the French Fight is hugely different in the new patch than it is in the 1.2.

Example:

I do the usual, break through in Antwerp with some inf divs and then drive my armor and mot corps through to Mons via the shift+rightclick. By the time my tanks get to Mons, there's 19 French divs in Paris.

Elsewhere, I drive the bulk of my inf (20 corps of 3 divs ea.) from Cologne to the pivot over Lichtenstein. By the time my troops are done with that, there's 17 French divs in Reims. My inf is situated so that I can attack Riems from two provinces and it takes a very hard fight over approx a week's time to finally break into that province.

Meanwhile, 30 French divs have gathered, mainly from the Maginot Line, but also from elsewhere, and are squatting in the province directly east of Paris.

The French AI has tended to, largely, abandon the Maginot Line immediately upon my DOW on Brussels. A relatively light skeleton force remains, but there's a huge movement toward Paris that beings immediately.

This tends to be the same regardless of when I attack. I've tried it as early as late March as soon as the frozen ground warms up in the north half of France, and as late as mid September when there's a break in the summer storms.

Not complaining, mind you. Nope, not at all. The French Fight was rather silly easy before, but now it can be pretty ugly. That is kinda nice for a change.

My question is, was the AI changed? Or am I just doing it wrong lately?