Aristocratic ideas in 1.8 Art of war.

[Naresh]

Aristocratic + religious.

These are two heavy hitting ideas for Muscovy. As an eastern nation cavalry has the edge over western units fairly early on, which should be capitalised upon. Keeping up with tech is not an issue with a western vassal such as the livonians.
Cheaper cavalry enhances the zerg rush Russia tends to be known for, and the combat ability isn't shabby either.
You can never have enough man power either, and the additional leader lets Russia make the most of her armies.

Admittedly, the +core creation cost doesn't matter too much as Russia, but I find it really deters nations such as the Timurids, Sweden, the Commonwealth etc. Russia eats through manpower, and if Sweden thinks it can gobble a province... it will try.

Religious as Orthodox is also an obvious choice so I won't bother expanding too much, other than the cheaper culture swap (along with muscovy bonus) means you'll pretty much always get the +core cost modifier. The policy for Aristocratic Religious (revolt risk and missionary strength) just rounds off the whole thing nicely. Deus vult to declare the war, manpower and cavalry to win the war. core cost to stop the enemy hitting you during the war, faster missionaries and less RR to keep the land.

 

[slv]

Somehow I personally dislike aristocracy an as an idea or a western nation.

Sure, on the start of the game cavalry is your main damage dealer, shock is the single most important parameter of generals but already around 15th level it is no longer true and cavalry deals way less than 33% your damage. Cavalry maintenance stop being crucial on 7th level where your main money-sink is artillery.

So that means that if you want to have any use of that idea group, you had to pick it among your first three idea groups.

If I want to see the military effect of this idea group I had to unlock 4 ideas, which is quite a lot (1600 points ~ 20 years).
If I decide to pick the military idea as mi first idea group, I would definitely go offensive or defensive instead, since with them I can just unlock one (offensive) or two (defensive) ideas, be considerably stronger and not lag behind in tech.
If I pick it an my second idea group, usually I had to float in military points, so instead of unlocking 4 idea groups and making myself stronger by 30% (10% from combat abiloty and 20% from leder shock) i would instead pick 7 offensive or quality ideas which scale insanely well into lategame.

Sure, you can say "But you get non-military stuff too! Extra diplomat, war exhaustion. Also additional leader is very important." While this is somewhat true, as a general-purpose idea group Innovative is so much stronger than aristocracy. Better war exhaustion solution, More money (advisors>cavalry cost), better leaders (early in the game without innovative i usually keep my traditions at 60. If you do the math, you will see that innovative bonus effectively multiplies you tradition by 5/3 which in my case makes it float around 100. Also expected generals at 40 extra traditions have one more fire AND shock pip ). Tech discount is higher with innovative, too.

Of course you had to spend more valuable admin points, but national focus helps with this a lot.

For Muslim/Eastern/Indian/Chinese tech aristocracy is much better since cav dominancy last much longer, you tech slower and have time to fill a tree. On the other hand diplomat is much less valuable. Honestly every time I play in India I don't have anything to do with my diplos Especially in 1.8 when you have an infinite money and early embassy. Remember, you can't get a PU there now

also policies are just meh.

 

[FrigidSoul]

Sure, you can say "But you get non-military stuff too! Extra diplomat, war exhaustion. Also additional leader is very important." While this is somewhat true, as a general-purpose idea group Innovative is so much stronger than aristocracy. Better war exhaustion solution, More money (advisors>cavalry cost), better leaders (early in the game without innovative i usually keep my traditions at 60. If you do the math, you will see that innovative bonus effectively multiplies you tradition by 5/3 which in my case makes it float around 100. Also expected generals at 40 extra traditions have one more fire AND shock pip ). Tech discount is higher with innovative, too.

Of course you had to spend more valuable admin points, but national focus helps with this a lot.

The fact that you can get all of the above with mil points is the main advantage of Aristocratic. Well, that and the extra diplomat, a bonus that's only available in two other idea groups, and realistically only in one other idea group because Espionage bites. For your vassal-spamming world-conquest needs, Aristocratic is so much better than Innovative that the comparison's hardly even worth making. As a military group it kinda sucks (except in niche scenarios). As a general-purpose group that you can buy with otherwise low-value military points it's awesome.

Innovative, by contrast, loses out pretty decisively to a number of other Admin groups if you're looking to play that sort of campaign. Religious, Humanist, Expansion, Administrative are all more appealing in their own way. It's not that Innovative's bad; it just doesn't offer anything particularly compelling to justify the opportunity cost for taking it.

 

[Freudia]

Sure, you can say "But you get non-military stuff too! Extra diplomat, war exhaustion. Also additional leader is very important." While this is somewhat true, as a general-purpose idea group Innovative is so much stronger than aristocracy. Better war exhaustion solution, More money (advisors>cavalry cost), better leaders (early in the game without innovative i usually keep my traditions at 60. If you do the math, you will see that innovative bonus effectively multiplies you tradition by 5/3 which in my case makes it float around 100. Also expected generals at 40 extra traditions have one more fire AND shock pip ). Tech discount is higher with innovative, too.

If you go down the route of repeated truce breaking (which is a very valid strategy in 1.8, now that a nation can't join a coalition against you if it has a truce with you), you pretty much need either Aristocratic or Diplomatic (or maybe even both) to beat back the war exhaustion.

Of course, there's also the fact that higher base shock/fire values on generals is more consistent than less tradition decay. I've had too many times where on high tradition I'd still roll a junk general; this chance is a lot less common with a higher minimum floor.

 

[User4035]

Here is the breakdown of Aristocratic which is why you pick it:

These are the 2 main reasons you pick it:
The 10% military tech reduction.
The 100% coring cost.

And you want these ideas to stack somehow with your nation. If your not western tech then that 10% tech reduction is great. If you have a tradition that gives extra coring cost then the 100% increase stacks great too - berber nations, bohemia for example.

The rest of aristocratic gives a little of the other idea groups: quality, quanitity, offensive.
So it makes aristocratic an all rounder group so your not missing out too much by taking it.

 

[Hakuromatsu]

Aristocratic is my default first idea group -- if I don't have something specific that I need to have in mind, I default to Aristocratic and don't regret it one bit. Every single one of those ideas is mint in the 15th and 16th centuries.

 

[unmerged(484926)]

What's so great about the increased coring cost? Even when I'm playing as a small nation I rarely get attacked.

 

[Kansai-kun]

What's so great about the increased coring cost? Even when I'm playing as a small nation I rarely get attacked.

Depends on where you're playing. Being a neighbour of the Ottomans or France could be a death sentence, so everything discouraging them from going after you helps.

 

[Denkt]

Depends on where you're playing. Being a neighbour of the Ottomans or France could be a death sentence, so everything discouraging them from going after you helps.

But you could have gotten diplomatic and influence which may give you alliance with Timmy or Austria which make you rather safe.

 

[Kansai-kun]

But you could have gotten diplomatic and influence which may give you alliance with Timmy or Austria which make you rather safe.

That would mean trusting the AI to uphold their bargain - no, you're better off making your provinces as costly for the AI as possible.

 

[Freudia]

Being a neighbour of the Ottomans or France could be a death sentence, so everything discouraging them from going after you helps.

I never got attacked by Ottomans as Naxos and I didn't take Aristocratic. I kinda just figured that if the Ottomans wanted to come after me they'd do it regardless of coring cost.

 

[FreeSoc]

Aristocratic Ideas are hilariously good if you're playing as Poland/a Polish-formed Commonwealth - they were back in 1.7, and they still are. Extra general pips is never a bad idea, extra diplomats are handy, the core-creation cost keeps the Muscovites and the Ottomans at bay, and the cavalry bonus stacks with the bonus in your NIs. I'd go so far as to say that it's basically essential for a Commonwealth game - you'd be shooting yourself in the foot not to take it, at least.

 

[Denkt]

Aristocratic Ideas are hilariously good if you're playing as Poland/a Polish-formed Commonwealth - they were back in 1.7, and they still are. Extra general pips is never a bad idea, extra diplomats are handy, the core-creation cost keeps the Muscovites and the Ottomans at bay, and the cavalry bonus stacks with the bonus in your NIs. I'd go so far as to say that it's basically essential for a Commonwealth game - you'd be shooting yourself in the foot not to take it, at least.

Extra shock is good, so is cav cost reduction and the diplomat but you should be powerful enougth that ottos and other powers are not that treating and the unit strength suffers from diminishing returns, may be better to get up your discipine first and even better to get a strong economy.