Argument for making Materialism go the way of the Individualist

[Kravoka]

SO, all of the other axii are pretty self consistent.

Xenophile: All races should be an important part of galactic society.
Xenophobe: Our race first, and maybe only.
Pacifist: Believes in peace as an important part of achieving prosperity.
Militarist: Believes in the necessity of war with an undercurrent of nationalism.
Egalitarian: All people should have the same rights.
Authoritarian: Know your place and stay there.

But the guys I'm whining about are like:
Materialist: I'm the only kind of technophile there is, one who doesn't worship anyone regardless of how advanced they are. People also have trouble figuring out whether I'm a state atheist or just a secularist.
Spiritualist: I'm an idealist and religious fanatic who thinks that you only deserve rights to self-determinate let alone exist if you have an attribute that's beyond detection, manipulation or creation by any technology. This force that can be detected, manipulated and created by technology proves me right.

So my belief is that Materialism should be renamed to Secularism and Spiritualism to Dogmatism. Secularism because separation of church and state has done more to advance our technology than state atheism, and Dogmatism because all their civics* are more "we've seen the right path AND WE WILL KEEP TO IT!" than "wow, supernatural beings!" For diplomatic balance, maybe doubling all ethical diplomatic modifiers for Dogmatists since we all know that political disagreement gets way uglier when dogma is involved. The technological restrictions can be replaced with stuff about individual rights and free speech (and I don't think being barred from having the absence of an option is a restriction in the first place).

*Consider Orion's Arm for a setting where people who otherwise fit all markers of Stellaris Materialism worship their leaders as divine.

 

[daisha]

I've been irked by spiritualist since I started. It's an attractive ethic for unity, but I consider myself a spiritual person and I'm like actually* offended that roboracism is somehow considered essential to spiritualism. I have kinda high hopes for the implications of machine intelligence for our social and political development on the basis of my spiritual beliefs (+ too much Aristotle: all action aims at the Good, and more information = more accurate perception of the Good), so to see spiritualists depicted as necessarily anti-AI is... well, like I said, it's offensive to me. I know there's abundant sci-fi precedent of religious movements against AI but I also think it's very possible to build a spiritual tradition that is prepared for integration with AI entities, and I want to play spiritualist xenophiles who would be chill with Lt. Cmdr. Data.

 

[Kravoka]

I know there's abundant sci-fi precedent of religious movements against AI

And also precedent for the ever requested machine cults.

 

[hangry]

Materialist is fine. Materialist only concern themselves with the material world, things you can measure, quantify and analyze while spiritualists think there is something beyond matter.

 

[3Dent]

The issue is that it's tied into the Warp, sorry, Shroud and the whole ascension mechanics and lore. While this is a legit design decision, it just closes off too many possibilities from the RP/sandboxing standpoint.

 

[Kravoka]

Materialist is fine. Materialist only concern themselves with the material world, things you can measure, quantify and analyze while spiritualists think there is something beyond matter.

The problem with that last characterization is that there isn't a shortage of settings where unquestionably existent and powerful entities are given worship and it gets easier to find beings like that the more DLCs you have. Making it strictly about metaphysical stance is pidgeonholing, especially if you decide that Materialism is just an attitude.

 

[Abakus]

I think that this issue could be solved by incorporating the highly controversial Religion aspect of the game. You could make your spiritualists a machine cult with the proper religious (civic/trait/ethic)—lets call it a belief—and make clear whether your materialists are dogmatically atheistic or believers in a French Revolutionary-style Church of Reason (or if they’re just agnostic and religion isn’t something particularly important).

I think the game has a lot of wiggle room to play with these axes and many of the underlying mechanics are there.

 

[Duuk]

Weirdly, I've been on this one lately, too. Because you can't separate the Academics from the Roboticists. Meaning I can't have Academic Privilged monks that oppose robots. I feel like this axis isn't quite right.

 

[Matoro_TBS]

I feel like materialist/spiritualist is too often confused with religion, especially since spiritualist stuff actually has temples etc. If you check the ethic descriptions, the difference is about existence of things that cannot be measured, AKA soul. Spiritualists aren't necessary religious, they just believe that life is more than just particles.
The real problem comes from the fact that game-play proves spiritualists are right. There are psionic powers, there are creatures of Shroud etc. One could argue materialists should be able to access these, since they seem to exist in material world in some degree.
This could be explained by saying that stuff like Shroud and psionics are completely subjective, dream-like experience that cannot be quantified. This is how I justify the difference. A materialist might be shown how psionic powers work, but since psionic powers are based on belief and will rather than actual, physical phenomena, they cannot be quantified or measured. Materialists, by definition, don't believe there can ever be such things that cannot be quantified... so how should they respond to Shroud avatars and so on?
For this stuff to work perks of spiritualism should be a lot more "mystic" and less physical. Stuff that COULD be explained rationally, like materialists would do. Maybe you didn't get those psionic shields from gods, but your scientist had dreamlike vision that inspired him to create them.
Currently materialism seems like... stupidity. There are psionic phenomena. You can even research "psionic theory." The fact that they don't believe in soul shouldn't matter when they can see other people using psionic powers.
In that way it would be easier to make materialism "secularism" or something like that, but it wouldn't solve the problem. Why would you be "secular" when your spiritualist neighbors can prove you that they can summon light creatures from another dimension by praying a lot while using drugs? How can one not believe in the Shroud when it can devour planets? Why does materialism give research boost, when they're the only ones who actively don't believe in some things in the world?

 

[Armed Avacado]

While your proposal would make pretty good ethics, it would take some of the the flavor out. Connotatively, secularism/dogmatism emphasizes how the government (or authority in general) is organized, while materialism/spiritualism describe some of those deep-rooted beliefs individuals carry with them, which can only be propagated when a society as a whole is organized to support those beliefs on multiple levels.

For example, in my head-lore, I imagine that materialists are all about empiricism. Using that measure, our real life human society is strongly materialist, because empiricism has "won out" as the best method for learning and discovery. I imagine spiritualists to have diverged from this method, using some different approach such as introspectionism or some other philosophy that's unfathomable to us, and they've been so much more successful that these methods are how they learn and invent.

I see your argument, but I would aim criticism at the Ascendancy perks, not the ethics. Although they make a fun optimization game, I always felt the three Ascendancy paths have been railroading us into restricted empire builds, both strategically and with regard to the role-playing. I feel like they're too powerful to not choose, and once we do we're stuck with blander, one-sided empires. After Transendance, any and all species can be assimilated into telepaths. After Synthetic Evolution, there's no longer a lower class of robots and an upper class of organics. After Evolutionary Mastery, all of the useful 1-point traits that we've been hunting after to fit certain roles have been replaced by powerful one-size-fits-all 4-point traits.

 

[FoolishOwl]

The real problem comes from the fact that game-play proves spiritualists are right. There are psionic powers, there are creatures of Shroud etc. One could argue materialists should be able to access these, since they seem to exist in material world in some degree.
{...}
Currently materialism seems like... stupidity. There are psionic phenomena. You can even research "psionic theory." The fact that they don't believe in soul shouldn't matter when they can see other people using psionic powers.

"Materialist" doesn't seem to correspond to a position on metaphysics, but to tropes about mad scientists; they get "hard" high tech faster, and have a peculiar fascination with robots. "Spiritualist" seems to correspond more to tropes about dogmatic religious belief. Stellaris is all about classic science fiction tropes, so I suppose that's okay, if a bit disappointing.

It seems like both of them turn out to be wrong. Just as psionics are soon proven objectively to exist, the spiritualist insistence that uploading to synthetics means the death of the souls of the materialists doesn't seem to amount to anything.

Meanwhile, both are associated with Ascendancy paths that are linked to endgame crises. At least the Synthetic Evolution path sounds like it works out the way its aspirants expected, but the Shroud doesn't seem like what a religious faith would hope for at all.

 

[Typee]

I don't see how the existence of psionic powers "prove spiritualists right". It shows the mind has some powers previously unknown, but it doesn't prove the existence of a soul.

Spiritualists would explore those psionic techs via meditation and prayer, while materialists would look for the physical properties of synapses that allow such powers, use drugs to improve them, and so on.

 

[FoolishOwl]

I don't see how the existence of psionic powers "prove spiritualists right".

Because that's how Stellaris frames it: spiritualists get psionics and materialists don't. Which works out to "materialist" and "spiritualist" not meaning what they do outside the game.

 

[yerm]

Materialism blocks the shroud because the concept of non-matter is opposed to it. If you look up a literal definition of materialism it makes total sense. The issue then is that materialism in game feels a whole lot more like rationalism everywhere else. It is the "science" ethic. Unfortunately, as the game has evolved, the civic kind of hasn't, with psionics and the shroud being the most obvious display of it being contrary to rationalism.

Spiritualism meanwhile has always been the civic of unity and cohesion and HAS evolved with the game. It readily became the unity generation civic while abandoning its willingly-enslaved niche, and keeping govt ethics love.

My personal opinion? Materialism should become just rationalism, and get psionics like most everyone else. Spiritualism should ditch the temple and robohate for better buffs; the temple would be unlocked via civics. Every ethic would be able to go into whichever of the 3 APs now. Anyone could be religious, or not be.

 

[Typee]

Because that's how Stellaris frames it: spiritualists get psionics and materialists don't. Which works out to "materialist" and "spiritualist" not meaning what they do outside the game.

But materialists haven't been locked out of psionics for a while, you just need to get a scientist with psionic theory.

 

[Duuk]

Rationalism vs Supernaturalism axis (Robotics vs Psionics)
Rationalists may not ban robotics, may not learn psionic theory.
Supernaturalists oppose roboticts, may not construct robots, learn any robotic techs.
Tech tree will need to be adjusted to make sure neither axis causes a dead end or a stagnation, only different paths.

Theology vs Secularism axis (Temples vs Academics)
Both can use Academic Privilege. Temples replace research facilities. Reduced science output, increased unity output.
Theology has higher ethics attraction, +% output of unity from pop jobs.
Secularism has higher ethics deviation, higher influence gain from factions.

 

[Kravoka]

I feel like materialist/spiritualist is too often confused with religion, especially since spiritualist stuff actually has temples etc. If you check the ethic descriptions, the difference is about existence of things that cannot be measured, AKA soul. Spiritualists aren't necessary religious, they just believe that life is more than just particles.

Spoiler: How this meme exists is beyond me.

Theocratic Republic

Theocratic Oligarchy

Theocratic Dictatorship

Theocratic Monarchy

Everything is shaped by the official state religion, and the ruler is worshiped as an infallible living god.

No division exists between the state and the dominant organized religion.

in which the positions of ordained minister and corporate officer have merged into a single role

This government is structured like a religious cult

 

[Armed Avacado]

@Kravoka Those descriptions are for government forms, of course they're going to discuss religion in the context of power and societal organization. They don't describe how the individuals carry themselves in day-to-day life.

 

[AaronWaterhog]

I'd like to assume most of the confusion will be fixed when the religion update hits in two to three years. Unless of course they manage to bundle it with diplomacy.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

It's really simple:

Materialist: Attitude is that everything has a proven purpose, composed from its material components and functions as deduced by science (research bonus). Saying 'I believe' is inconclusive, as it relies on no definitive, measurable proof, just a hunch, which materialism rejects. Robotics is simply the apex of measurable progress, where the creator / user designs a machine to fulfil a purpose, at maximum efficiency, for measurable gains. (Robot bonus)

Spiritualism: Attitude is that everything an interpretion of events that unfold around an individual, often in relation to the self and ones own place in it, and society is a reflection of those interpretations where a common consensus is found (unity bonus). Saying 'I know' is incomprehensible, given that to know is to never truly know or understand another, it's needs, or where they fit into the greater picture. Storytelling and fables are what bind such a culture, and the best are are vigorously told and retold to maintain consensus on the galactic interpretation that best describes that culture (Edict bonus).