Aren't bug reports and suggestions the same thing?

[bitmode]

In my experience for practical purposes, suggestions and bug reports follow the same recipe:

• describe a shortcoming in the game as it is
• show a feasible path forward
• try to demonstrate that enough people share your opinion about the change

Traditionally, the hardest thing is to get enough eyes on any particular thread. Quite often, a main forum thread - although not laying out one particular solution or describing the problem concisely - is more successful simply based on continued engagement and reactions. If you look at the front page of the main forum at any point in time, half or so of the threads could easily be seen as a bug report, a suggestion or a hybrid of the two.

A day ago there was a thread on reddit about a missing portrait for Spain with >5.000 upvotes while none of the matching bug reports (1, 2, 3) in the forum gained even just a single upvote within several months and (perhaps not coincidentally) no dev response at that time.

I think it is time to drop the pretense that things "will be looked at" and instead move towards a system of topics the community votes for the devs to take a look at; regardless of whether their resolution is a "fix", an "improvement", a new feature or whatever else.

 

[pro.gamer.69]

Agree completely. The forum could honestly do with just 1 category (or maybe 2, one for MP advertising) where people rank what interests them with reactions, like they currently do, but choose how much they want devs to see it with votes.

 

[Wafloon]

I would love a master list of confirmed bugs and issues that can be voted by the community on to receive higher priority.

Star Citizen does this in a way where players can submit a bug report with screenshots and instructions on how to reproduce the issue under the same conditions to make sure it is actually a widespread issue.

It takes a total of 10 people to reproduce the issue to become a "confirmed" issue, which acts as a filter for the garbage. If an issue cannot be reproduced by people within 10 days, the report is closed automatically.

This is what a typical bug report looks like. Players have an option to choose whether they can reproduce, cannot reproduce, or if the report is a duplicate/similar to another (then linking to the duplicate).

Once confirmed as an issue, players can then vote on it if they believe it deserves a higher priority to be fixed.

This is a proven system that does work. It is similar to the system that exists already, but it's in a more dedicated form, I guess. You could incentivise the community to contribute in these bug reports by displaying their reporting stats on their forum profile.

 

[Dman1791]

Bug reports are about finding software problems (crashes and such) and unintended or broken gameplay issues (such as, for example, something that says "10% increase to soft attack" not actually applying said bonus).

On the other hand, suggestions are for describing things you'd like to see in the game, things you want to expand on/improve, or mechanics you think the game is better off without.

One is about making things work as intended, the other is about changing that intention.

 

[bitmode]

One is about making things work as intended, the other is about changing that intention.

What is the difference between the two, practically speaking? Why should I care what the intent was?

 

[Simon_9732495]

Every bug report is a suggestion. “I suggest to fix that”.

But not every suggestion is a bug report.
“Add medieval empire xy as new releaseable.”

So we could remove the bug report forum because everything is a suggestion anyway.
I wouldn’t recommend that. A bug report forum is some kind of institution. It requires more formal posts.
Suggestion require less. You can have a suggestion without a screenshot and the game version and mods used are irrelevant...

 

[cotne22]

In my experience for practical purposes, suggestions and bug reports follow the same recipe:

• describe a shortcoming in the game as it is
• show a feasible path forward
• try to demonstrate that enough people share your opinion about the change

Traditionally, the hardest thing is to get enough eyes on any particular thread. Quite often, a main forum thread - although not laying out one particular solution or describing the problem concisely - is more successful simply based on continued engagement and reactions. If you look at the front page of the main forum at any point in time, half or so of the threads could easily be seen as a bug report, a suggestion or a hybrid of the two.

A day ago there was a thread on reddit about a missing portrait for Spain with >5.000 upvotes while none of the matching bug reports (1, 2, 3) in the forum gained even just a single upvote within several months and (perhaps not coincidentally) no dev response at that time.

I think it is time to drop the pretense that things "will be looked at" and instead move towards a system of topics the community votes for the devs to take a look at; regardless of whether their resolution is a "fix", an "improvement", a new feature or whatever else.

A bug is a request to fix something that is not WAD, a suggestion is asking to change something that is WAD.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

A bug is a request to fix something that is not WAD, a suggestion is asking to change something that is WAD.

And how would an average person know what is WAD? It's not like DPS even documents all changes (at least somwhere available to general public).

 

[SRhistory]

Would love to see the "Star Citizen" bug report here in the forum. Would make it easier to get a bug solved. Now... you can only up vote it and hope DEV will fix it soon.

about WAD... just finding out (or read the code). For example the "bug" that you sunk only 1 convoy. I saw i got more by just looking into the combat log.
Don't believe you will get functional specs about the game... and for most players not needed at all.

I agree with @cotne22 . "A bug is a request to fix something that is not WAD, a suggestion is asking to change something that is WAD." . This is how the developer world is looking at the different between those two things. But maybe PDS should explain it a bit more so people know where to put a bug or functional change on the forum. (or even a request or technical issue which lands in the main thread where nobody is going to help them.

 

[KubiG37]

I agree as well.
I think the Bug reporting forum should be kept, since you can still (or anyone else) search the forum if the bug is already reported or not and it doesn't clutter.

But suggestions, I think it's completely superfluous by now, since all main problems are discussed on the main forum (or even Reddit or something) anyway. The only people who probably ever go visit the suggestion subforum are those willing to suggest something themselves. Every time I suggested something (no matter how big or small) it barely got 50 views and, sometimes 1 like.

BTW I really like how Microsoft Flight Simulator forum works, with regards to bugs. The above discussed is split into 'Bugs' and 'Wishes', it's then pre-arranged according to the nature of the issue, and only then the users' posts. Everyone can upvote a bug or a wish (with a limit of 2 daily or something) and the most upvoted are highlighted.
The devs regularly post the current 'standing' of both bugs and wishes, and they work 1st on the most upvoted ones (or at least officialy say they won't be changing that because X, or Y), really nice. Wish it would work here like that too, the devs could find it useful as well.

 

[podcat]

move towards a system of topics the community votes for the devs to take a look at; regardless of whether their resolution is a "fix", an "improvement", a new feature or whatever else.

yeah have been thinking the same. its quite easy to miss big community gripes sometimes, especially as they are often very siloed. And you also cant just focus on stuff by who screams the loudest. As for how to technically solve it I dunno. A few years back we had the mod community put forward a doc with their biggest needs and wants and used that for prios successfully. Been meaning to bring it up for discussion with community people anyways

 

[bitmode]

I wouldn’t recommend that. A bug report forum is some kind of institution. It requires more formal posts.
Suggestion require less. You can have a suggestion without a screenshot and the game version and mods used are irrelevant

Perhaps a middle ground is better? A bug report gets dismissed out of hand anyway if it has mods. The game version can be somewhat useful for both suggestions and bugs. But you can just look at a calendar to see which version was current when the thread was made.

Many suggestions would benefit from more precisely describing how the game will become better due to them.

Every bug report is a suggestion. “I suggest to fix that”.

But not every suggestion is a bug report.
“Add medieval empire xy as new releaseable.”

So we could remove the bug report forum

I like podcat's wording of a "community gripe". Many bugs are community gripes, as well as some suggestions. I guess this overlap was what I was thinking of in the OP and which tends to get the most dev attention.
But I'll concede that some suggestions really are just ideas and some bug reports just document a software defect.

 

[podcat]

Cranium reminded me that we can sort the bug forum by popularity now... which I had somehow missed ;D so maybe we got the tools we need after all hmm

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

Cranium reminded me that we can sort the bug forum by popularity now... which I had somehow missed ;D so maybe we got the tools we need after all hmm

That does not take duplicates into account >.>

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

Cranium reminded me that we can sort the bug forum by popularity now... which I had somehow missed ;D so maybe we got the tools we need after all hmm

I consider this as an improvement. Thanks!

 

[Ketchup & friends]

A day ago there was a thread on reddit about a missing portrait for Spain with >5.000 upvotes while none of the matching bug reports (1, 2, 3) in the forum gained even just a single upvote within several months and (perhaps not coincidentally) no dev response at that time.

Because it's not a bug. The devs never promised unique pics for all generals.
You could make a suggestion to add them, ideally with a pic. (@Jopa79 made one for Finnish leaders and @Marques from Brazil for Brazilian generals)

And how would an average person know what is WAD? It's not like DPS even documents all changes (at least somwhere available to general public).

By reading the DD and patch notes.

 

[Secret Master]

What is the difference between the two, practically speaking? Why should I care what the intent was?

There is an important consideration here regarding intent versus something not working as intended.

Consider the following scenario:

Player A posts a bug report in the appropriate forum asking podcat to change Rommel's portrait to include a pink tutu because "Rommel was a closeted ballet dancer, and he really wanted to perform ballet, not command tanks. Also, putting a pink tutu in Rommel's portrait will increase game sales to the waifu demographic."

Podcat or designated developer states that Rommel's portrait is not a bug, and that there is no design intention to add pink tutus to any portrait.

Player A posts an excerpt from Rommel's secret diary showing that Rommel really wanted to be a ballet dancer. The player also posts a photograph of Rommel in a leotard dated June of 1936. This is used to show that the game is truly bugged with a bad portrait.

The developers again reiterate that the issue is not a bug, and that the game is working as designed.

The fact that developers consider Rommel's portrait as WAD in its current form means that it doesn't matter if you think it's wrong or bugged or broken. The game is functioning as they intend it to function.

If it's a bug, then when arguing for the change, you cite the critical piece of evidence that the developers don't want the game working in this way. If it's a suggestion, you are making the argument that you don't want the game working in this way.

It changes the character of the argument and what rhetorical techniques one might use to bring about a change. (Or not: some developers of some games are incapable of being shamed by their own hypocrisy, but I'm not going to trash non-PDX developers in this post today.)

 

[Harin]

Since getting requests sorted in some kind of efficient manner for developers to understand what is rising to the top of players wish lists, maybe the new sub-forum, if there is going to be one, could have some sticky treads at the top with some pre-planned categories. For example of some sticky categories: 1) Typos 2) Portraits 3) Name Changes 3) User Interface 4) Naval Combat 5) Land Combat 6) Air Combat, etc....7) Nation specific information to share with Developers 8) add categories as requests accumulate in the threads below the stickies.

Or anything that works to help developers to see without spending the time to read a book.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

By reading the DD and patch notes.

Doesn't explain how even half of things are supposed to work:
should carriers protect from naval strikes?
should light battery give cruiser HP if you mount more than one, like heavy one does?
should deep charges prevent light attacks, but not heavy attacks or torps?
should light carriers be exempt to engine swapping costs when they swap one type for another?
should ship cost metal when you build bare-bones design and then refit it?
should aces be generated purely on per-wing basis?
should units fully retain their XP when you give them different equipment?
should XP (both for army and generals) incentivise you to fight for a while then stop instead of actually trying to win?
should majority of naval XP really be earned by training?
should "defence" bonus buff breakthrough?
...and many, many more.

 

[cotne22]

Doesn't explain how even half of things are supposed to work:
should carriers protect from naval strikes?
should light battery give cruiser HP if you mount more than one, like heavy one does?
should deep charges prevent light attacks, but not heavy attacks or torps?
should light carriers be exempt to engine swapping costs when they swap one type for another?
should ship cost metal when you build bare-bones design and then refit it?
should aces be generated purely on per-wing basis?
should units fully retain their XP when you give them different equipment?
should XP (both for army and generals) incentivise you to fight for a while then stop instead of actually trying to win?
should majority of naval XP really be earned by training?
should "defence" bonus buff breakthrough?
...and many, many more.

It's true that some things are tricky to distinguish, but things like the AI cancelling ship production and coring syria as the ottomans requiring kuwait are certainly bugs.