And of course, by the nav issue i mean the fatal flaw of the super ungodly powerful NAV stacks, that seem to simply go in, sink a ship that took you 9 months to complete, and then go home unscathed. UNSCATHED I SAY.
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Completely agree. Their naval attack, and naval attack in general should be reduced.
Yes, this seems to be the most unbalanced element in the game, certainly in terms of units.
I tried an experiment as the USA. I placed a NAV stack of four on Wake soon after the war began, followed by another four NAV later on. They sank just about the whole Japanese navy on their own. The ships just kept coming, and getting sunk, while the planes hardly ever had to pause to regather strength.
This can be modded in the DB/misc.txt (in whichever Mod folder being played) ; Decreasing these values will decrease damage caused by Air units against naval
# Air vs Navy - Org dmg - Increasing this will increase ORG damage naval unit takes from air units
0.75 #1.5
# Air vs. Navy - Str dmg - Increasing this will increase STR damage naval unit takes from air units
0.37 #0.75
Increasing these will increase damage caused by naval units agianst Air
# Navy vs. Air - Org dmg - Increasing this will increase ORG damage air unit takes from naval units
20.0 #5.0
# Navy vs. Air - Str dmg - Increasing this will increase STR damage air unit takes from naval units
1.0 #0.5 #5.0
Those are my current mods in a TRP game and dramatically change the odds so that carriers are now very powerful units , using this Bombers will often get wiped out by naval units and not the other way round! Recommend experimenting with the values, I find TRP does the best job in modding this
# Air vs Navy - Org dmg - Increasing this will increase ORG damage naval unit takes from air units
0.75 #1.5
# Air vs. Navy - Str dmg - Increasing this will increase STR damage naval unit takes from air units
0.37 #0.75
Increasing these will increase damage caused by naval units agianst Air
# Navy vs. Air - Org dmg - Increasing this will increase ORG damage air unit takes from naval units
20.0 #5.0
# Navy vs. Air - Str dmg - Increasing this will increase STR damage air unit takes from naval units
1.0 #0.5 #5.0
Those are my current mods in a TRP game and dramatically change the odds so that carriers are now very powerful units , using this Bombers will often get wiped out by naval units and not the other way round! Recommend experimenting with the values, I find TRP does the best job in modding this
I would be interested in getting more feedback on games played with these settings. Sounds like an interesting suggestion to investigate.
That setting got a Naval bomber wing shot down by a Japanese carrier fleet on the 1st strike, the other 3 wings were wrecked (I use 4 as the max air stack) and an SB stack of 4 was also at 50pc strength after 2 hours so it's obviously over the top. The orig TRP setting of 0.5 for Navy vs Air (Str dmg) is about right I think (the orig DH full setting was 0.04 obviously not effective at all for AA on ships), however I was not satisfied with how easy it was to sink the Japanese fleet even on those settings so hopefully merely halving Air vs Navy (Str dmg) will make it just about right (the 0.75 setting is the same as DH full).
if one reduce NAV power, one also should reduce their cost and size (like 20 strength). The pb is not the NAV strength but the size of the stack which is very irrealistic. If on a unit with 100 planes, only 20 are really flying a mission, it should be large enough to sink any ship. Billy Mitchel demonstrated that in 1921. And if only 25% of planes are really flying the mission, they should not take more loss than 25% and abort before being destroyed, so the strength loss from anti-air should not be increased.
@pacgen: Since i'm responsible for the current naval combat model in TRP, i'd like to add some comments:
1) Please also look at our unit values, not just the modifiers. Carriers + CAG + AA are designed to cover several ships within the fleet, i.e. their airdefence and airattack values are rather high. Generally speaking, it's the AA addons that add airattack to the vessels while most of their airdefence capabilities originate from the base unit (hull strength). (CAGs and LCAGs add a considerable amount of airdefence, too, in order to simulate CAP screening.)
2) Morale for both bombers and ships is rather high in TRP. They recover much faster than they're being repaired. That's why i set a rather high modifier for org damage.
3) For TRP 1.02, i'm going to tune down strength damage to bombers a little bit and increase orga damage instead.
What I tried to achieve was a supporting role for bomber wings in naval combat while taking into account that it's much cheaper and faster to build and repair them compared to any ship. Carriers may look overpowered in TRP because they down dozens of bombers on each attack run, but they are still vulnerable against other carriers and submarines.
1) Please also look at our unit values, not just the modifiers. Carriers + CAG + AA are designed to cover several ships within the fleet, i.e. their airdefence and airattack values are rather high. Generally speaking, it's the AA addons that add airattack to the vessels while most of their airdefence capabilities originate from the base unit (hull strength). (CAGs and LCAGs add a considerable amount of airdefence, too, in order to simulate CAP screening.)
2) Morale for both bombers and ships is rather high in TRP. They recover much faster than they're being repaired. That's why i set a rather high modifier for org damage.
3) For TRP 1.02, i'm going to tune down strength damage to bombers a little bit and increase orga damage instead.
What I tried to achieve was a supporting role for bomber wings in naval combat while taking into account that it's much cheaper and faster to build and repair them compared to any ship. Carriers may look overpowered in TRP because they down dozens of bombers on each attack run, but they are still vulnerable against other carriers and submarines.
# Air vs Navy - Org dmg - Increasing this will increase ORG damage naval unit takes from air units [multiplier]
1.0
# Air vs. Navy - Str dmg - Increasing this will increase STR damage naval unit takes from air units [multiplier]
0.5
# Navy vs. Air - Org dmg - Increasing this will increase ORG damage air unit takes from naval units [multiplier]
0.25
# Navy vs. Air - Str dmg - Increasing this will increase STR damage air unit takes from naval units [multiplier]
0.2
I think I nailed it.
6 NAV II commanded by a level 3 general. It port striked a lonely UK fleet. The UK fleet only have a BB5, CA2, CL4, DD3. The fleet lost 3 destroyer, 755 people died. The BB only got 25% damage. Looks like the ideal situation. A relatively large air group bombed a small vulnerable fleet. The fleet lost a damaged screen, but no capital ship sunk.
1.0
# Air vs. Navy - Str dmg - Increasing this will increase STR damage naval unit takes from air units [multiplier]
0.5
# Navy vs. Air - Org dmg - Increasing this will increase ORG damage air unit takes from naval units [multiplier]
0.25
# Navy vs. Air - Str dmg - Increasing this will increase STR damage air unit takes from naval units [multiplier]
0.2
I think I nailed it.
6 NAV II commanded by a level 3 general. It port striked a lonely UK fleet. The UK fleet only have a BB5, CA2, CL4, DD3. The fleet lost 3 destroyer, 755 people died. The BB only got 25% damage. Looks like the ideal situation. A relatively large air group bombed a small vulnerable fleet. The fleet lost a damaged screen, but no capital ship sunk.
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1. Regarding Ship damage to NAV: Can't CAG values be set proportionally to FTR/NAV values? so a 50-fighter CAG should do as much damage to a 100 NAV wing as a 50 FTR land wing, incremental over ship AA?
2. Regarding NAV damage to Ships: I don't think it's necessarily too high. If you send 400 bombers at an enemy fleet, you should sink a handful of ships, including capitals. The issue is that they can run sortie after sortie with minimal dmg to themselves.
2. Regarding NAV damage to Ships: I don't think it's necessarily too high. If you send 400 bombers at an enemy fleet, you should sink a handful of ships, including capitals. The issue is that they can run sortie after sortie with minimal dmg to themselves.
I only nerfed the air vs ship damage slightly. 0.75 to 0.50
Compared to ship vs air damage: from 0.04 to 0.2. That is a massive buff!
Edit: Someone test out my setting please. I only did it once against a small fleet.
Compared to ship vs air damage: from 0.04 to 0.2. That is a massive buff!
Edit: Someone test out my setting please. I only did it once against a small fleet.
I did a few more testing, deciding to change things a bit. In my first test, the NAV is quite old, and disorganized. I tweaked the value a bit to make it balanced gameplay wise. No historical consideration.
# Air vs Navy - Org dmg - Increasing this will increase ORG damage naval unit takes from air units [multiplier]
1.0
# Air vs. Navy - Str dmg - Increasing this will increase STR damage naval unit takes from air units [multiplier]
0.5
# Navy vs. Air - Org dmg - Increasing this will increase ORG damage air unit takes from naval units [multiplier]
0.4
# Navy vs. Air - Str dmg - Increasing this will increase STR damage air unit takes from naval units [multiplier]
0.25
To be honest, 0.04 is rediculously low. The only modfier deserving less than 0.1 is land combat, which takes days. I really suspect the devs accidentally added an extra 0.
# Air vs Navy - Org dmg - Increasing this will increase ORG damage naval unit takes from air units [multiplier]
1.0
# Air vs. Navy - Str dmg - Increasing this will increase STR damage naval unit takes from air units [multiplier]
0.5
# Navy vs. Air - Org dmg - Increasing this will increase ORG damage air unit takes from naval units [multiplier]
0.4
# Navy vs. Air - Str dmg - Increasing this will increase STR damage air unit takes from naval units [multiplier]
0.25
To be honest, 0.04 is rediculously low. The only modfier deserving less than 0.1 is land combat, which takes days. I really suspect the devs accidentally added an extra 0.
I tend to agree here.
Navs, as well as, mostly limited by range, CAS, should be effective again enemy ships. Why shouldn't they be. If you send 4-600 heavy long range bombers against an enemy fleet, they should do enormous damage. Spotting is the hard part, and maybe that is too easy atm, but I cannot see why from a military point of view, these bombers should be ineffective.
The only thing keeping NAVs at bay should be a CAG, and to a lesser degree, LCAG.
There was a reason why in RL, the Pacific War was fought mostly over who controlled airfields and supply routes.
If you think about it, the only reason for which you need Carriers is to bring airpower to regions where you have no land based air power available. Air power, especially cost wise, simply trumps conventional warfare. As carriers trumped BBs, hundres of NAVs trump fleets. Loose a couple of them, loose a couple of bombers, replaced easily. A damaged ship requires a dockyard, and takes long to repair. A sunk ship needs many months or years to be replaced.