Are we going to get Immigration/Emigration?

[Wandre]

Back during early dev streams Martin had mentioned population shifting through immigration/emigration pressures on planets inside yours and other empires (if you had treaties). As it stands the game fails to model any population pressure for emigration due to low housing or employment. It also seems to have zero immigration pressure when it's got lots of jobs/housing.

With large empires or in the late game this becomes a micromanagement nightmare. The new system really needs this to be functional in later game stages when colonies are mature to prevent constantly having to babysit unavoidable pop growth before it turns into instability.

Are we ever going to get this feature? I like most of the mechanics in the new patch but pop migration is just awful right now.

 

[Captain Conundrum]

It does exist and it works the way you're describing. It's just that emigration rarely outweighs pop growth, so you don't usually see it happen. You might want to try out the Automatic Pop Migration mod on the Steam workshop. That is currently one of my must-have mods because it completely eliminates the time spent resettling people.

 

[trojan1234]

I tried this immigration mechanics.

Once I fully built planet, then I declare population control on it. This will convert all pop growth into emmigrations towards planets I am managing. But this way have 2 problems A) base immigration is capped at 5 so if base emmigration from 'finished planets' is over 5, I have feeling of pop loss into voids unless I manage 50% or little bit more of planets by myself. B) but the more important problem is I can't synchronize pop growth if I am using immigration/emmigration. So many factors(housing, open job, pull modifiers) make immigration rate not the same in my 'yet-finished planets' so I have to deal newly-created pops everymonths. On the other hand, if I synchronize pop growth in all of my planets, I only need to deal with newly created pops once in 14-17 months(depending on modifiers).

 

[Wandre]

It does exist and it works the way you're describing. It's just that emigration rarely outweighs pop growth, so you don't usually see it happen. You might want to try out the Automatic Pop Migration mod on the Steam workshop. That is currently one of my must-have mods because it completely eliminates the time spent resettling people.

Going to have to disagree with you there. I've seen no evidence of population growth modifiers based on overpopulation or unemployment.

There should be some instances of population loss and growth simultaneously (especially with multiple species types). This would be in line with the old system of migration and is why there are two boxes describing growth and decline instead of just one.

There is no evidence of population decline unless a species was set to some form of purge setting.

This information needs to be broken down somewhere if these things are happening. At the moment population growth seems to be the only true factor for pop changes. Immigration/Emigration do not seem to be modeled unless there are specific species settings [read: purge type] or bonuses that affect ONLY growth.

[Immegration may also affects species types that could appear on a planet but since no information is given could simply be a weighted RNG modifier on what will grow next. There is no evidence multiple pops are growing simultaneously.]

 

[rubert]

Going to have to disagree with you there. I've seen no evidence of population growth modifiers based on overpopulation or unemployment.

In my current game I have 3.3 reduced population growth on one of my smaller worlds due emigration. Emigration itself is caused by a) newly created colonies (16.60 push), b) overcrowding (+50 push). Another planet has 4.6 emigration due both overcrowding and unemployment (plus the new colonies).

 

[trojan1234]

In my current game I have 3.3 reduced population growth on one of my smaller worlds due emigration. Emigration itself is caused by a) newly created colonies (16.60 push), b) overcrowding (+50 push). Another planet has 4.6 emigration due both overcrowding and unemployment (plus the new colonies).

That is the immigration/emmigration mechanics. It transfers pop growth from pushing planet to pulling planet.

 

[Mavkiel]

So can anyone explain how to make the most out of the current system? Seen it suggested in this thread that stopping population growth on a world helps increase it on others? I tend to play tall, but at a certain point extra population on worlds tend to get annoying. I thought I basically either had to stop growth, or keep resettling them. (not used the forced resettling for unhoused pops, because I normally suck at balancing houses and have more of them then jobs.)

 

[Captain Conundrum]

Try this mod. It doesn't work unless resettlement is allowed, but for most empires this is a life saver.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1617534169

 

[OrigamiPhoenix]

I think the biggest problems are that immigration is capped and that emigration is too ineffective.

As it is now, all the immigration bonuses in the world that should make that 200+ free jobs and housing ecumenopolis fill up lickety-split instead only contributes little over 5 pop growth.
Your capital planet that has severe unemployment and overcrowding with pop discouragement is still somehow managing positive pop growth.
It's absurd.

 

[trojan1234]

So can anyone explain how to make the most out of the current system? Seen it suggested in this thread that stopping population growth on a world helps increase it on others? I tend to play tall, but at a certain point extra population on worlds tend to get annoying. I thought I basically either had to stop growth, or keep resettling them. (not used the forced resettling for unhoused pops, because I normally suck at balancing houses and have more of them then jobs.)

Let me explain as far as I understand.

Say planet A have immigration push. It can be seen from planet/population tab, there are 6 boxes under pie graph, top right box explains immigration. Unemployment and overcrowding in planet A increases immigration push value. As long as there exists a planet B/C/D with immigration pull(from high stability or free jobs), planet A's pop growth decreases by emmigration value X (which is less than pop growth without emmigration) while planet B, C, D's pop growth increases by base immigration value Y1, Y2, Y3 etc. X is same as sum of Y1, Y2 Y3. the modifier 'pop growth form immigration' plays here by inceasing pop growth by Y1 * (1 + modifiers) But in vanilla game, base immigration value is capped at 5. I have no idea how much immigration pull and push leads to emmigration value yet.

Regarding immigration mechanics, we have 3 choices for 'fully developed planet A'
1. Forget planet A, let pop grow. Eventually, planet A will have unemployment and overcrowding. Immigration push will decrease pop growth on planet A by emmigration value while other planets get immigration from A. However, because of overcrowding or unemployment (I am not sure which one triggers) pop starts to decline as well by -5 per months. This means total pop growth in empire decreasd by 5 per month. Also lower stability from overcrowding and (maybe) unemployment means lower productiviy in planet A
2. Resettle extra pop from planet A. Because we remove extra pop, there will be no unemployment or overcrowding. Planet A will have the productivity as you developed. Bad part is we need to pay energy credit to resettle and it's micromanagement heavy.
3. Declare population control on planet A (I think there is policy requirement to do this). There will be no pop growth in planet A. All pop growth turned into emmigration value. As long as there exist planets of immigration pull, total pop growth in the empire is same or higher if one have 'pop growth from immigration'. We don't bother resettlement from planet A and we can completely forget planet A from this point but planet A will suffer stability -5 = production -3%.

I tried 1, 2, and 3.
Method 1 is inefficient.

Method 2 is well-known resettlement method. ​

Method 3 helps me to manage only around half of my planets after I declare pop control in other half. But I need to suffer -5 stability in half of my planets. Plus desynched pop growth bothered me.

 

[Mavkiel]

Thanks, that is actually pretty darn helpful a reply!

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Excess amenities, housing, and job openings increases Immigration pull. A lack of housing or jobs increases Emigration push. This is in the game.

 

[AlanC9]

I had some fun with emigration the other day. One of my planets was short on both housing and employment. I figured I'd fix those after upgrading the capital building. But the capital building never upgraded. Every time I looked, the arrow was back. I though I was going nuts.

Finally I hit the upgrade button and just sat back to watch. Turns out that the new pop which made the planet eligible for the capital upgrade also sent the planet into negative population growth. One pop would emigrate away before the upgrade finished, which would result in the upgrade being cancelled, and then the planet went back into positive growth. If I hadn't built more housing, the population total would have cycled like that forever.

 

[Tobasco da Gama]

3. Declare population control on planet A (I think there is policy requirement to do this). There will be no pop growth in planet A. All pop growth turned into emmigration value. As long as there exist planets of immigration pull, total pop growth in the empire is same or higher if one have 'pop growth from immigration'. We don't bother resettlement from planet A and we can completely forget planet A from this point but planet A will suffer stability -5 = production -3%.

If your Population Controls policy is set to "Allowed", you get the Declare Population Controls decision, which works as you described. If Population Controls is "Prohibited", on the other hand, you get a different decision called "Discourage Population Growth".

"Discourage" only reduces pop growth by 75%, but in exchange it replaces the Stability hit with +25% Amenities and Upkeep.

I know the Space Nazi archetype is the most popular one around here, but I thought I'd toss that out in case there's anybody else around here who doesn't play that way.

 

[AlanC9]

It's funny that Paradox tracking data unequivocally shows that most players prefer egalitarians. Of course, the stock UNE probably has something to do with that.

 

[Wandre]

These are examples of planets recently conquered.

The Core shows 259 Emigration push with a -0.62 to pop growth and no Decline.

Boundary has 60 Emigration push with -0.38 to pop growth and has Decline.



The decline is 5.00 and just says Base. All species in the empire are set to full citizenship with no migration controls, pop controls or purges allowed. There are no migration treaties.

Immigration/Emigration is not working as a weird invisible function of Growth. Decline should occur far more often and Emigration should have a push well before a planet is full (including during growth). Maybe the values or weighting can be adjusted to work better but I think Growth and Migration need to be separated. This would improve end game or large empire management.

 

[AlanC9]

Declining pops would be very bad much of the time -- districts going out of action, buildings becoming damaged, etc. I'm pretty sure that the game's been deliberately balanced so that worlds will grow most of the time; that one I had which capped pop at 40 needed a lot of immigration pull to get there.

By the time unemployment's actually an issue, you should be at a point where productivity doesn't really matter anyway.

 

[Urza1234]

Going to have to disagree with you there. I've seen no evidence of population growth modifiers based on overpopulation or unemployment.

There should be some instances of population loss and growth simultaneously (especially with multiple species types). This would be in line with the old system of migration and is why there are two boxes describing growth and decline instead of just one.

There is no evidence of population decline unless a species was set to some form of purge setting.

This information needs to be broken down somewhere if these things are happening. At the moment population growth seems to be the only true factor for pop changes. Immigration/Emigration do not seem to be modeled unless there are specific species settings [read: purge type] or bonuses that affect ONLY growth.

[Immegration may also affects species types that could appear on a planet but since no information is given could simply be a weighted RNG modifier on what will grow next. There is no evidence multiple pops are growing simultaneously.]

... have you ever taken a look at the actual files, or even the wiki?
The mechanics arent great, but they are at least fairly simple. As far as I can tell you're talking out of your ass completely erroneously, in which case please stop.

These are examples of planets recently conquered.

The Core shows 259 Emigration push with a -0.62 to pop growth and no Decline.

Boundary has 60 Emigration push with -0.38 to pop growth and has Decline.

View attachment 441075 View attachment 441076

The decline is 5.00 and just says Base. All species in the empire are set to full citizenship with no migration controls, pop controls or purges allowed. There are no migration treaties.

Immigration/Emigration is not working as a weird invisible function of Growth. Decline should occur far more often and Emigration should have a push well before a planet is full (including during growth). Maybe the values or weighting can be adjusted to work better but I think Growth and Migration need to be separated. This would improve end game or large empire management.

        POP_DECLINE_THRESHOLD                = 3.0    # A species will decline when there is another species with a growth priority this many times higher

From defines. Decline is only tangentially linked to emigration, but yes it can happen and does happen, and the reasons by which it happens are not arcane.
Voice your dissatisfaction with the operations of the current system if you must, but please educate yourself more before trying to talk about actual mechanics.