Are vassal Republics worth the effort in Conclave?

[Dahoota]

I've played 2 decent length campaigns since Conclave now and am getting a pattern:

1. Inevitably as the realm becomes larger, the realm needs to enable more council power at some stage. Certainly at least by the time you reach Empire rank. Routinely fighting council power civil wars gets old fast.
2. The nature of republics means doge(s) are almost always powerful vassals and end up on the council.
3. The rebalanced positive opinions combined with the wrong govt type penalty still being -30 means the doge very likely has a negative opinion of me, becoming a malcontent and not accepting favour requests.
4. The Doge is loaded and buys favours from the other councillors.
5. Result: Most of my actions become blocked.

The most reliable means of clearing it is usually firing the doge from the council, letting him trigger a faction revolt and locking him up afterwards, but then this happens with most doges.

It ends up being a lot of pain for not that much gain. Any thoughts or solutions for this aside from not using vassal republics? It seems to me the "Wrong Government Type" malus needs to be rebalanced a bit.

I really like how much Conclave has improved the late game but this is getting tedious rather than difficult.

 

[riadach]

This is why we need more diplomatic options for obtaining favours.

A shame that you can't get a favour from your vassal republics when you start an embargo war.

 

[Asiak]

Were vassal republics worth the effort before Conclave?

This is a question I repeatedly asked myself. I also repeatedly asked myself is more then one worth it. Before Conclave I had pretty much said no, more then one isn't worth it. In earlier games I would create maybe 2 or 3 republics in an effort to fully cover the Mediterranean. Now I did this under the vague completely un-test but logical assumption that more trade meant more money and that although not noticeable it would maybe eventually float up to me in taxes.

I also always had the thought that don't trade posts contribute at all to the local count or duke who actually owns the province? I know the post is owned by the partrician and he pays to the doge but the trade must benefit the counties right?

But regardless doing this for one or even multiple games you realize multiple republics aren't needed. The Mediterranean will fill with trade posts eventually. And as we all know just getting one Doge to like you enough to pay taxes is a challenge onto itself much less 3 or 4.

So now I roll one, but after Conclave is even that one worth it? Not really. I recently as a Byzantine Emperor kept Venezia for myself. A move we often see the AI do and certain people even complain about. Here I was doing it because I couldn't afford another ornery vassal. Especially not one who costs and arm and a leg to buy down.

And for what? Even if your burghers are shifted toward taxes, what your gona sit your chancellor on that guy for how long the entire reign, just get a few ducats?

No they aren't worth it post Conclave imo.

 

[BrokenSky]

This is somewhat offset by the advantage that the Doges will often independently expand the realm though, which is useful for getting around threat.

 

[Asiak]

This is somewhat offset by the advantage that the Doges will often independently expand the realm though, which is useful for getting around threat.

Which was probably broken before Conclave. Because I swear after Conclave not a game goes by where some Itallian doesn't conquer Africa or die trying.

And ya know who else expands independently just fine, regular old cheap not as ornery King vassals. Even a powerful Duke will expand outside the realm on occasion.

 

[HolyOne]

I never had problem with vassal MRs. Not in conclave or pre-conclave.

You want the MRs for 2 things: trade posts and boats. Mostly the first one, because that brings in the money. Don't give them too many counties and they won't be considered "powerful."

In my Magyar -> Carpathia game I set up the whole of Crimea as a MR. It is a huge duchy, but they weren't "powerful" anymore once I had a few vassal kings under me. Even a bigger feudal duchy can beat an MR levy-wise, because cities give shit for levies (and super easy to siege down if they rebe) and the AI rarely (I've never seen it) holds baronies in its counties to max levies and income.

 

[Arsonik]

It ends up being a lot of pain for not that much gain. Any thoughts or solutions for this aside from not using vassal republics?

I'm at (769)1178 of a Scotland game currently as Emperor of Alba with all of the de-jure. I'm very happy with the realm, this game has been going good. However, I've had one family member landed as Grand Mayor of Gwynedd since 1071 and they have been a constant thorn on the concil. As you have pointed out, they are always a "strong vassal". I fortunately had most of my laws where I wanted them before I landed the doge. But I can see that it will be difficult to get any obligation or council laws changed. For some perspective, I have 12k personal levies + a 7.4k retinue and he only has 2.8k levy. So I haven't had any serious problems, but I've also been very wealthy since early in the game, thanks to the new mercenary system. Keeping it in the family for at least 300 years, I had my first sons as captains of the Gowrian Band bringing in loads of money every inheritance until I decided to settle them. Thats another post though

In hindsight, I regret landing the doge in this game. Under different circumstances, where I may be hurting for money, I may consider it again. But its not really doing me any good in this game. I'm going to keep the republic around for now as I am only landing family members (up to 302 family members now FeelsGoodMan). Thinking about giving him Rome even.

 

[Thrake]

I also always had the thought that don't trade posts contribute at all to the local count or duke who actually owns the province? I know the post is owned by the partrician and he pays to the doge but the trade must benefit the counties right?

It adds to the income to each city yes, and so you also get some indirect return from your direct vassal burghers. Tooltip should give you the exact bonus income.

 

[Asiak]

but they weren't "powerful" anymore once I had a few vassal kings under me. Even a bigger feudal duchy can beat an MR levy-wise, because cities give shit for levies (and super easy to siege down if they rebe) and the AI rarely (I've never seen it) holds baronies in its counties to max levies and income.

This is a good point. Perhaps post Conclave republic vassals should be reserved for when your powerful enough to handle / have king vassals. A dDoge among dukes is a big fish. Which is ironic since doge translates to duke.

But a doge among kings is the runt of the litter.

It adds to the income to each city yes, and so you also get some indirect return from your direct vassal burghers. Tooltip should give you the exact bonus income.

Okay thank you. That was seriously one of those things that I just vaguely thought existed but never remembered to check.

Such an added income might be nice on your demesne's cities but with vassals that is so margin-able by the time it floats up to you. By opinion is still maybe they aren't worth it post Conclave.

 

[name_here]

I think a happy vassal MR is worth the effort, but doing it halfway will come back to bite you. Still, even with the rebalance -30 isn't unmanagable. Give him a council slot, complete control of his duchy, and honorary titles and he should stay in the green. If you need a law passed, make sure to request his support before actually starting the vote; he's less likely to refuse if he doesn't oppose you on an in-progress vote. If that doesn't work, lock in a majority vote with favors and support requests before he does.

 

[StarSword]

The game's calculation on who is a powerful vassal is as misleading as the start difficulty calculation. But one way to keep them in check is to keep his territory small. Either use a tiny duchy (Mann, Venice, and Genoa are single provinces), or transfer some of his de jure provinces to a different duke (a practice you ought to be doing with your dukes anyway since it makes them dislike each other and thus less likely to join up against YOU).

Divide and conquer machinations are even more important now than they were pre-Conclave.

 

[Aries666]

Divide and conquer machinations are even more important now than they were pre-Conclave.

This is something I have really noticed doing a nomad game, take a duchy give one county to each of your Khans, make one of them the Duke and watch with glee as they declare blood fueds and fight one another.

 

[indika_tates]

IMO, is not worth it. When I created a MR doges were ever factionalists, buying favor from other dukes and plotting against their liege. They give you ducats, that's right but they spend their ducats on revolting. Maybe some of the suggestions of retracting de-jure vasals can work but they are troublesome vassals. Pre-conclave I was happy with vassal doges but after conclave they give more problems than benefits. If someone have a way to keep them happy without revolting i'm interested on it.

 

[Secret Master]

I haven't seen my vassal doges being powerful enough to demand council seats most of the time. When I'm small, yes. But once I'm at the multi-kingdom stage, they tend to fade in power compared to some feudal vassals.

Maybe it helps to found new MRs in bad duchy locations to cut their levies down and reduce their potential power? My vassal MR in Afars (Abyssinia game) wasn't too troublesome.

 

[StarSword]

This is something I have really noticed doing a nomad game, take a duchy give one county to each of your Khans, make one of them the Duke and watch with glee as they declare blood fueds and fight one another.

Yeah, exactly. The only caveat to this strategy this is that you can't do it in one step: you first have to remove the county from the "rightful" duke, which means incurring a tyranny malus (unless he actually owns the county and you can manufacture an excuse to revoke it). You'll take -5 to relations with all vassals and get +10 with the duke you gave the county to.

Another old trick that goes along with this is to land somebody in the county (assuming there's nobody there already) to weaken the destination duke.

 

[gdj]

After 4 full campaigns with Conclave i must say that vassal republics are no worse than before.

+ the opinion penalty is now -20, not -30 as OP posted. This is easily offest by making your doge by default seneschal (+10) and commander (+10). And why not? He is an important vassal after all. Other cultures have similar titles that can be used.
+ the doge will sit in your council for sure, but i see absolutely no difference in his behaviour compared to feudal or theocratic vassals. He does buy favors for his factions, but this is only an issues in the first 2 years after succession.
+ i frankly cannot recall having a doge with a negative opinion of my rulers - if he sits in the council. I have also never seen any of my doges being malcontent. Do you rack up so much tyranny, or how do you get this "malcontent blocking doge"-effect?
+ why fight the "increased council power" factions? Just accept in the first 2 years, and roll back the reforms when the council is content again. The only factions i fight are pretender factions, and i have never seen a doge participating there - they don´t give a damn about your feudal succession problems. I usually enact war declaration commitee and banishment commitee and nothing else. After succession, a faction will quite usually force me to enact the title revocation commitee as well, which will be rolled back 5 or 10 years later. On the next succession, exactly the same procedure repeats. I never had any major problems here, in any of the 4 full campaigns (i.e. until 1453).
+ patricians produce a lot of spare female courtiers your vassals can marry without causing inheritance troubles. Since Conclave made the AI marriage behaviour even stranger than before, this has become a real benfit, especially if you are independent (its less evident if you are a vassal).

The only real argument against republics with Conclave is that money - the main benefit from having a republic - is now much less of an issue since feudal vassals pay by default taxes now (unless you enact all the levy shifting laws). Even so, the other benefit from having a republic - many, many, many ships - is still an important consideration, especially on the earlier start dates.

 

[Less2]

Even in the absolute worst instance, Emperors can still put their Republics under a king to milk increased empire-wide city income and some second-hand doge income with zero issues.

Also I agree with gdj on not really seeing the issue. There's plenty of ways to keep them happy or avoid issues.

 

[FifthMonarchy]

I agree with the point above about boats being a positive of vassal republics, especially handy if you're short of coastline and early in the game where no-one else is providing many. As has also been pointed out, the money is not so important now everyone pays taxes even in Christian etc realms.

 

[Arsonik]

Even in the absolute worst instance, Emperors can still put their Republics under a king....

This is reasonable advice, except that I have superiority complex and cant have anyone that close in rank to me.

 

[KlinkerFyren]

Maybe lower the "wrong government" opinion thing to -15 or -10. That might work better or something?