Are there any plans to rework Armored Cars?

[ScaleZenzi]

I think the easiest solutions would be to either make ACs have higher suppression, make ACs way cheaper, or some combination of the two. If ACs were only a little more expensive than motorized it'd already have a much higher use case.

 

[CaptainBruh]

Light tanks on wheels and armored cars seem a bit redundant.
We only need one of those two, problem is that some people own LaR and NSB, others none of these two and then again some people own one those two.

So I'd apply the following:

For people who one both DLCs:
- Remove armored car tech
- selecting wheeled in light tank designer should allow the user to select as unit type armored car, with maintaining the battalion/support brigade type already existing since LaR (with some balance improvements to suppression [speed and reliability also positively should effect suppression of armored car designs)
- Armored cars should also have an org advantage compared to the default wheeled tanks.

For people who only own LaR:
- Keep the current armored car tech tree, but adapt the stats to what could be a good standard design of an armored car in the above case.

For people who only own NSB:
- It is only possible to built wheeled tanks, but not using armored cars brigades.
- However, wheeled should have some speed and reliability buff in simple terrain compared to tracks, to somewhat have a niche use. Maybe lower supplier consumption, Idk

For people who own neither DLC
- I think here we don't need any change.

I think NSB origionally had plans to expand the tank designed to armoured cars and mechanized. If you look in the game files, there is a module that creates mechanized that was never put in the game, plus we can already select half-track and wheeled suspension in the designer. Think of the Puma, is that a HOI4 Armoured car, or a HOI4 NSB tank with wheeled suspension? what is the purpose of the Anti-Tank armoured car if NSB exists?

 

[LordWahu]

I think NSB origionally had plans to expand the tank designed to armoured cars and mechanized. If you look in the game files, there is a module that creates mechanized that was never put in the game, plus we can already select half-track and wheeled suspension in the designer. Think of the Puma, is that a HOI4 Armoured car, or a HOI4 NSB tank with wheeled suspension? what is the purpose of the Anti-Tank armoured car if NSB exists?

It's a pity that tank roles are hardcoded. It would be lovely if we could mod these into working

 

[vermicious knid]

I think the easiest solutions would be to either make ACs have higher suppression, make ACs way cheaper, or some combination of the two. If ACs were only a little more expensive than motorized it'd already have a much higher use case.

You coudl also make them better at the recon part of recon than light tanks. Higher recon bonus, better move bonuses. That would give players a choice between padding division combat stats (light tank) or being quicker w/a tactical advantage (armored cars).

 

[Corpse Fool]

You coudl also make them better at the recon part of recon than light tanks. Higher recon bonus, better move bonuses. That would give players a choice between padding division combat stats (light tank) or being quicker w/a tactical advantage (armored cars).

Dont they already kinda do that? Cars get a +1 over tanks for recon, and while the tanks are faster in forests jungles marshes and mountains, the cars are faster in plains and deserts. Which isnt really the cars themselves, because motorized are 0.5 more recon, arent weaker in mountains or marshes, and are even stronger in deserts.

 

[vermicious knid]

Dont they already kinda do that? Cars get a +1 over tanks for recon, and while the tanks are faster in forests jungles marshes and mountains, the cars are faster in plains and deserts. Which isnt really the cars themselves, because motorized are 0.5 more recon, arent weaker in mountains or marshes, and are even stronger in deserts.

Motorized recon has the best movement bonuses, as you point out. Light tanks have a total of 80% in bonuses over all terrains versus 75% for AC.

So I'd say bumping the recon bonus for AC a bit more and giving them terrain bonuses equal to or better than motorized would start making the choice more interesting.

 

[Corpse Fool]

Light tanks have a total of 80% in bonuses over all terrains versus 75% for AC.

Would you mind going into greater detail about why you think expressing the speed boosts in that way, matters?

 

[The_Tim]

Armored cars don't need be fixed, theyre a niche thing.... if anyone want RP germany occupations just play it and build it.

I don't ever heard about armored cars in .. battle of Stalingrad? Midway?

Make no-sense to me, beat heads to make a niche unit "useful", its like discuss how to make the rocket interceptors useful...

We do build trucks, are RL trucks more expensive ou cheaper than armored cars? Whats next? introduce police uniform production line for the sake of make occupations the greater greater sink hole of IC and manpower?

Armoured Cars should be a subbranch of Motorized research tree, like Mechanized. Perhaps standartize all motorized stuff on a "designer".

So we can have a "motorized designer", the basic template will be a truck/car "frame", with a engine. if we add artilhery or rocket, it will become a "motorized artilhery". if we add armor module it become a "armoured cars" or a "mechanized".

That way, standartized with a designer, the armoured cars can have a versatile use without seems a "niche unit" for the sake of IC sink.

I mean, you just didn't hear about Armored Cars because they just aren't that glamorous

I mean heck, there were many important Vehicles that don't exactly get talked about that often, for instance Pz3(mostly known for not being in numbers during the Battle of France, and apparently being inferior to the T-34, in spite of being the workhorse of Barbarossa from '41-'42), or the P4(which wouldn't be known if not for backlash/elitism countering the popularity of the Tiger in the modern psyke), or the Cromwell, or the Stuarts(apart from saying about how the Brits liked it when they got them compared to the Cruiser Tanks already in Service), or the T70, or really any tank that isn't the Sherman/Fireflies/T-34/Tiger really doesn't have that much open and public presence

Like which one do you think gets more attention, the SPW222s, M8 Grayhounds, Ba10s, or the half dozen types of British Armored Cars versus the Tigers, Shermans, T-34s/IS2s, or Fireflies/Churchills

Armored Cars were used basically everywhere there was fighting, heck even the Japanese had a good many of them(which is surprising considering Japan's Relationship with Armored Vehicles). And they were incredibly useful with the allies partially switching over to the Stuarts for Recce mainly because of better cross country performance(and the soviets using the T70 depends on unit to unit). As for Germany, they'd only make a relatively little amount of dedicated recce tanks(IIRC about 200 total across P2 Luchs, Afk. Pz. 38t, and some other short run prototypes. Though this isn't counting captured LTs pushed into the role, but even then it wasn't exactly common). Honestly, this shouldn't really be a discussion since Armored Cars were using the same guns as their comparable LTs with the exception of the Chaffee and we should just be able to carry over 1:1 that a LT w/Wheels or HT suspension should be an Armored Car

 

[vermicious knid]

Would you mind going into greater detail about why you think expressing the speed boosts in that way, matters?

Just a quick way of expressing that light tanks currently get slightly better (in terms of total bonus) movement bonuses.

I don't have a strong analysis of whether the actual distribution of bonuses is more useful for one or the other. My bias would be towards the balanced bonuses of the light tank, but I'm not a micro fanatic.

My point is that a niche should be carved out for armored cars...everyone used them, so they were definitely good for SOMETHING.

I'm not sure what mix of lower cost, better stats, better suppression, better recon, and/or movement bonuses for divisions would create that niche without making them overpowered. Pretty sure the developers can twist the knobs a fair bit before we get there, based on the current state of them.

 

[JohnnyDepressio]

I think there are basically two problems that need to be solved.

1. Recon as a stat is underpowerd and needs a rework
2. Having Light tanks in the Tank designer and AC not creates a missmatch especially with recon beeing a "given" stat.


My suggestions

1. Recon should be a more importent stat especially on the offense. I would suggest a complete rework with a mechanic similar to armor where recon values of both sides are compared and if one side has significant better recon it gets a recon advantage which gives additional buffs.

2. Armored cars should become part of the Tank designer with the following changes

• Light Tanks with Weels do not logher exist, they are now armored cars (I dont know how half tracks should be handeled that can be figured out by someone else)
• Wheeled suspension should be reworked
  • It is reliable cheap and fast
  • it has bad terrain mods on soft terrain and can carry significant less weight -> less armor
  • variants/upgrades (6wheel and 8wheel suspension) can be researched
• Recon is not a set stat but is calculated from the mobility (recon vehicles need to cover ground) and modified by components (new ones like cupolas, or special optics and existing ones like smoke launchers and better radio)
• Suppression is not a set stat but calculated from recon (knowing where the partisans hide is halve the job) and soft attack.

Armored cars would be best suited for recon and suppression and be on the same playing field regarding costs as light tanks. Light tanks could still be used for recon but you would actually need to build them as recon-light tanks and not as assault-light tanks to be effective.

 

[NeomerArcana]

My suggestions

1. Recon should be a more importent stat especially on the offense. I would suggest a complete rework with a mechanic similar to armor where recon values of both sides are compared and if one side has significant better recon it gets a recon advantage which gives additional buffs.

Recon isn't a "combative" stat though. I think both sides should get a bonus depending on their individual recon stats. I.e. Germany having good recon doesn't mean that France doesn't.

2. Armored cars should become part of the Tank designer with the following changes

• Light Tanks with Weels do not logher exist, they are now armored cars (I dont know how half tracks should be handeled that can be figured out by someone else)
• Wheeled suspension should be reworked
  • It is reliable cheap and fast
  • it has bad terrain mods on soft terrain and can carry significant less weight -> less armor
  • variants/upgrades (6wheel and 8wheel suspension) can be researched
• Recon is not a set stat but is calculated from the mobility (recon vehicles need to cover ground) and modified by components (new ones like cupolas, or special optics and existing ones like smoke launchers and better radio)
• Suppression is not a set stat but calculated from recon (knowing where the partisans hide is halve the job) and soft attack.

Armored cars would be best suited for recon and suppression and be on the same playing field regarding costs as light tanks. Light tanks could still be used for recon but you would actually need to build them as recon-light tanks and not as assault-light tanks to be effective.

Armored Cars 100% need to be a part of the tank designer. You just have an extra role added, "Armored Car". You can have half-tracks etc as a kind of suspension along with a role of "Troop Carrier" etc for Mechanised Infantry, which makes it an equipment requirement for those divisions. Obviously would need modules like "Passenger space" or something that then stops a main cannon being equipped on anything except the largest "Land Ship" type tanks.

But I don't agree with you on suppression. Recon is a completely different thing to "knowing where the partisans hide". Suppression, if anything, should be more connected to convert operations.

 

[JohnnyDepressio]

Recon isn't a "combative" stat though. I think both sides should get a bonus depending on their individual recon stats. I.e. Germany having good recon doesn't mean that France doesn't.

While that is true I think this could be simplified in a "combative" way. If both Sides are on equal footing there are no needs for buffs or debuffs. Anyway I have no strong feelings about the question how recon should be reworked but perhaps we can agree that it needs top be more pronounced when it is at the moment?

But I don't agree with you on suppression. Recon is a completely different thing to "knowing where the partisans hide". Suppression, if anything, should be more connected to convert operations.

• Well I think the convert operations are represented by your spys. However I do not know how to calculate supression but I think it is important to not just give it away regardless how problematic the design is. I think to he a good supressing unit you would need
• Numbers
• Speed - to cover more space
• Awareness - to not be ambushed
• Resiliance to small Arms fire
• Firepower against soft Targets
• Good communication

 

[NeomerArcana]

While that is true I think this could be simplified in a "combative" way. If both Sides are on equal footing there are no needs for buffs or debuffs. Anyway I have no strong feelings about the question how recon should be reworked but perhaps we can agree that it needs top be more pronounced when it is at the moment?

I think recon already has a bonus associated. Whether it should be more pronounced is a whole other thing. I do think that ACs should get more recon though, to give them a dedicated reason to be added to motorised or armoured divisions.

• Well I think the convert operations are represented by your spys. However I do not know how to calculate supression but I think it is important to not just give it away regardless how problematic the design is. I think to he a good supressing unit you would need
• Numbers
• Speed - to cover more space
• Awareness - to not be ambushed
• Resiliance to small Arms fire
• Firepower against soft Targets
• Good communication

Yes, convert operations are your spies. They should provide some sort of bonus to suppression when operating in occupied areas as they would work to root out the partisans.

Suppressing units... it's really just a stat. ACs were historically good at, and used for, suppression because partisans were typically only armed with small arms, which could do nothing against an AC. No need to use a tank to suppress partisans when an AC could do it. Granted, the tank probably should provide the same amount of suppression really, it's just that the AC would be cheaper than using a tank.

Firepower against soft targets is irrelevant for suppression. Suppression duties are not frontline combat. There's no attack and defence rounds.

 

[Joshua Happytree]

They were rarely utilized in frontline units

Armoured Cars were extensively used for recce

tanks were rarely used for MP duty

Germans used Pz I and Pz II for police duties. I'd say those can be called barebones LTs.

 

[Joshua Happytree]

So surely it has a use right now in armoured divisions?

Protected wheeled vehicles are used for logistics in armoured brigades / divisions. When armoured brigades / divisions can avoid using them for front-line duties they are not used. They are kinda useless for things like recce as tracked vehicles are much better at moving cross-country. So protected wheeled vehicles simply cannot go to many places tracked armoured units have to. Though there're (were?) Knights and Armoured Knights FIST vehicles in US Army arsenal.

 

[OllyOllyOxenFree]

Why is fuel not used in garrisons? That's problem number 1 in all honesty

 

[The_Tim]

2. Armored cars should become part of the Tank designer with the following changes

• Light Tanks with Weels do not logher exist, they are now armored cars (I dont know how half tracks should be handeled that can be figured out by someone else)

actually HT Armored Cars were actually a thing

From the top of my head, the most pronounced HT Armored Car was the Sdkfz 250/9, which was a Sdkfz 250 with a 20mm turret instead of being a light transport, apart from that I'm fairly sure that the Soviets had a pre-war HT AC and the french had a half dozen different models(though they saw light use after the Germans took france and were either used for anti-partisan, and therefore some desperate use against the western allies, with significant amounts of them being scrapped)

 

[Znail]

It's a pity that tank roles are hardcoded. It would be lovely if we could mod these into working

It's possible to mod them to work. The key limitation is that you can't have AC both as pre-designed and in the tank designer, you have to pick one. Personally I like it more with only in the designer, so unless someone else does a mod I might make one myself.

 

[NeomerArcana]

Protected vehicles are used for logistics in armoured brigades / divisions. When armoured brigades / divisions can avoid using them for front-line duties they are not used. They are kinda useless for things like recce as tracked vehicles are much better in moving cross-country. So protected vehicles simply cannot go to many places tracked armoured units have to. Though there're (were?) Knights and Armoured Knights FIST vehicles in US Army arsenal.

100%, I think elsewhere in this thread I mentioned the Coordination stat, and that ACs should also increase that for the divisions they're in (mostly to "simulate" more that they're not front-line vehicles).

Actually, come to think of it. Maybe ACs should just be equipment that existing armoured brigades use? Like a Light Tank Brigade requires 10 ACs. You can still have a AC brigade that primarily uses ACs as it's required equipment, but having the other motorised/armoured divisions requiring a small number of ACs gives a good reason to build and keep them up to date.

I love the idea of adding ACs to the tank designer so I can come up with some ridiculous things. So I guess so long as I can set the role in the Tank Designer as "Armored Car" or "Troop Carrier" etc, it still jives with making them required equipment in the other brigades.

HOI has always struggled with a point to having ACs, I remember in HOI3 you sort of never needed them.

 

[Ringwraith_JP]

It's possible to mod them to work. The key limitation is that you can't have AC both as pre-designed and in the tank designer, you have to pick one. Personally I like it more with only in the designer, so unless someone else does a mod I might make one myself.

Are you sure? The way the tank designer assings "roles" is hardcoded and I don't think that AC is an attributable role from the designer.