World trade wasn't really dynamic, it was pretty much pre-destined to pass through to the highest population centres because of the demand.
Are the end trade nodes overpowered in 1.8?
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World trade wasn't really dynamic, it was pretty much pre-destined to pass through to the highest population centres because of the demand.
Your statement would make sense if it were true. If it were, all end nodes would end in India & China during this period.
Well it's not the only factor, is it? The demand for Chinese and Indian goods in Europe was massive, so it ended up back in Europe in areas with the highest population centres. Nowadays we have a truly global market and China sucks up a large amount of the raw materials, as per the population.
I understand what you are saying, I just dont think you know how to say it. Has nothing to do with population, its about purchasing power.
During this era, the GDP in Europe began to skyrocket with Britain having $4,000 per person average while Asia stagnated (having been over 50% of total world GDP for centuries) and didn't rise above $600 until after the Industrial Revolution. In EU4 this seems to be sort of shown in Trade Efficiency, since a nation with a higher purchasing power would have more trade income than a nation that is poor.
the thing you are forgetting is the absolutely mind boggeling amount of silver that the Europeans send to Asia in order to get those tradegoods.
Not forgetting that at all good sir. Very familiar with the inflation and devaluation crisis that China caused during the period.
I understand what you are saying, I just dont think you know how to say it. Has nothing to do with population, its about purchasing power.
During this era, the GDP in Europe began to skyrocket with Britain having $4,000 per person average while Asia stagnated (having been over 50% of total world GDP for centuries) and didn't rise above $600 until after the Industrial Revolution. In EU4 this seems to be sort of shown in Trade Efficiency, since a nation with a higher purchasing power would have more trade income than a nation that is poor.
Thank you, this is exactly what I meant to say. **** Sundays.
What is wrong? I thought it was clear:
That united Scandinavia (for example, but many other examples were given in other threads) can suck Carribean/Chesapeake trade without any kind of presence in those nodes - just by patrolling their European node.
If you want steer trade you should have presence in that area.
This has always been a problem in EU4. It used to be you could protect your trade by just collecting trade in a land node and then dominating it, back in the day merchants gave pitiful trade power and without a sea connection they had no way to increase their trade power. With all the land steering changes and the upstream trade power propagation that no longer works, theres absolutly nothing you can do to stop the inevitable hemmoraging of money from upstream to downstream nodes. This is why end nodes are incredibly OP, becasue they are completely, 100% immune to having trade money drawn from them.
Given, its not so much a problem in places like the English channel and Venice which tend to be competitive, but then you have countries like france and spain whom either have an entire end nodes to themselves or can easily conquer the other countries in that end node without consequence.
Given, its not so much a problem in places like the English channel and Venice which tend to be competitive, but then you have countries like france and spain whom either have an entire end nodes to themselves or can easily conquer the other countries in that end node without consequence.
But it is a big problem if your are not in Venice/English Channel/Iberia area, and God forbid if your are ROTW.
I have this problem with Tunis: While I own all provinces in the Tunis trade node (except Malta), have put a lot of money into trade buildings and have my fleet protecting trade, I am still only 2nd/3rd in trade power behind Spain/Portugal, even though they do basically nothing but camping.
this.
on topic - end nodes are powerful. they make it easier to get a firm grip on trade, as you only have to control the provinces of that one node, but it is quite possible to turn any half-decent node into an equally powerful pseudo-endnode by conquering all the outgoing nodes. for example, in my shahanshah run I am on par with portugals trade income and above everyone else, using the persia node steering trade from india. soon I'll leave even portugal in the dust.
End trade nodes have always been overpowered. Being completely immune to having downstream nodes take from you is such an edge.
Either conquer tangiers/ceuta/mellila and move your trade port there or use the money for privatering Sevilla node instead of building trade buildings.
I think people need to look at trading from a different perspective.
Here is a list of statements, feel free to comment on them:
1. Every province produces goods. Trading is the ability to find a customer for those goods. It's the ability to connect supply and demand.
2. Goods are being sold to the traders in the local trade node. This first financial transaction between suppliers and local traders is listed as [Production Income]. From this point on, the goods belong to the traders. It's up to them now to make a profit out of it.
3. Traders are searching for best deals (maximizing profits). They either sell the goods locally or sell them to other traders in downstream nodes.
4. The ability to find these best deals is represented by trade power. You either find ways to sell goods in your local provinces (represented by local province trade power, like important center of trade). Or send them by sea. Ability to send goods by sea is related with naval supremacy. You can have monopoly on tobacco market in caraibas, but you will be unable to sell them in Europe (and thus make a profit caraibas trade node) if the ocean is controlled by your rival. Your trade ships without any protection will never arrive safely to Europe. Without protection looters, pirates and natural disaster will ruin your tradIn a sense, trade power represents your ability to narrow these available list of best deals to the traders in that node, which will allow to steer the financial flux in your prefered direction.
5. Goods will move downstream (forward towards to the final consumers) until they will get to the buyers with greatest purchasing power.
(Think of it this way: you bought apples from your local suppliers for 1$, you can sell them locally for 1.2 $, or you can export them to the node downstream for 1.4 $. Of course you will send the goods downstream if you are offered a better deal. This is what trade power is, the ability to present you a better deal. The traders in the downstream node are also maximizing their profits, they either sell them locallyor send them downstream if that gives them a better deal)
6. Historically the end trade nodes were places where you could find and buy everything you wanted. Those were kingdoms with very strong economy and huge demand for goods. For this reason everybody was trying to sells stuff there. Think of it this way, 18th century, where would you have a higher chance to buy tobacco in Sevilla or in Kiev? That's because goods in Renaissance era moved mostly in the downstream direction from nodes to weak purchasing power towards nodes to high purchasing power. People leaving in areas of Hansa, Venice, Sevilla, London where some of the richest people back then.
7. The money you collect form a node, represents the profit you get from the trade. It's the net difference from buying the goods a selling them. If the node is leaking money downstream, it means that it is unable to make a profit out of goods that pass through it.
8. Trade power propagation makes sense, because if you are for example the gatekeeper in Lubeck (kingdom/republic with highest trade power) you can enforce your terms of trade on the trader in Baltic sea. It's something like: We are buying apples from you for the price of 1.2$ or not buying at all. The baltic sea traders, unable to find better deals locally, they are forced to accept the terms, thus the Baltic trade node will look like it's being completely sucked out of money by Lubeck.
Feel free to correct me where i am wrong.
Here is a list of statements, feel free to comment on them:
1. Every province produces goods. Trading is the ability to find a customer for those goods. It's the ability to connect supply and demand.
2. Goods are being sold to the traders in the local trade node. This first financial transaction between suppliers and local traders is listed as [Production Income]. From this point on, the goods belong to the traders. It's up to them now to make a profit out of it.
3. Traders are searching for best deals (maximizing profits). They either sell the goods locally or sell them to other traders in downstream nodes.
4. The ability to find these best deals is represented by trade power. You either find ways to sell goods in your local provinces (represented by local province trade power, like important center of trade). Or send them by sea. Ability to send goods by sea is related with naval supremacy. You can have monopoly on tobacco market in caraibas, but you will be unable to sell them in Europe (and thus make a profit caraibas trade node) if the ocean is controlled by your rival. Your trade ships without any protection will never arrive safely to Europe. Without protection looters, pirates and natural disaster will ruin your tradIn a sense, trade power represents your ability to narrow these available list of best deals to the traders in that node, which will allow to steer the financial flux in your prefered direction.
5. Goods will move downstream (forward towards to the final consumers) until they will get to the buyers with greatest purchasing power.
(Think of it this way: you bought apples from your local suppliers for 1$, you can sell them locally for 1.2 $, or you can export them to the node downstream for 1.4 $. Of course you will send the goods downstream if you are offered a better deal. This is what trade power is, the ability to present you a better deal. The traders in the downstream node are also maximizing their profits, they either sell them locallyor send them downstream if that gives them a better deal)
6. Historically the end trade nodes were places where you could find and buy everything you wanted. Those were kingdoms with very strong economy and huge demand for goods. For this reason everybody was trying to sells stuff there. Think of it this way, 18th century, where would you have a higher chance to buy tobacco in Sevilla or in Kiev? That's because goods in Renaissance era moved mostly in the downstream direction from nodes to weak purchasing power towards nodes to high purchasing power. People leaving in areas of Hansa, Venice, Sevilla, London where some of the richest people back then.
7. The money you collect form a node, represents the profit you get from the trade. It's the net difference from buying the goods a selling them. If the node is leaking money downstream, it means that it is unable to make a profit out of goods that pass through it.
8. Trade power propagation makes sense, because if you are for example the gatekeeper in Lubeck (kingdom/republic with highest trade power) you can enforce your terms of trade on the trader in Baltic sea. It's something like: We are buying apples from you for the price of 1.2$ or not buying at all. The baltic sea traders, unable to find better deals locally, they are forced to accept the terms, thus the Baltic trade node will look like it's being completely sucked out of money by Lubeck.
Feel free to correct me where i am wrong.
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Two things - connected - and the key word is -- mercantilism --
We have it in game and try to increase it all the time, - it was historical fact - why would you, an overlord of colonial nations, (Spain, Portugal, England, ...) allow foreign competitors on your market? So Dutch/English can (and did) send privateers, size Portugese/Spanish/Dutch colonies, declare war, etc. But in game it is enough that you patrol/build your home node and trade does not go to Sevilla but to northern Europe.
Another aspect of this propagation issue is that even if you build super-powerfull empire in Asia you can not stop bleeding your trade to Europe. And the only solution is to conquer all outgoing trade nodes (as Achanei mentions). DDRJake is doing exactly the same in his current game in eastern Africa - even when he was able to win war against France+Spain+Portugal+Milan+Naples and is undisputed no. 1 in Indian Ocean and owns all eastern Africa. Would real empire allow it? They would ban ships from Europe or allow them on their own conditions only, because WTO and free trade without barriers do not belong to EU4 timeframe.
So we have to face that current EU4 mechanics are not very good, and the main perpetrator seems to be excessive pulling from nodes in Europe.
There is also third issue of static and one directional trade routes, since if we are able to change history, we should be able change trade patterns as well, but that is different story.
these are all valid complaints. I regard the current system as a simplification. I am an economist, and the inflation system is a very very unrealistic one, but for gameplay sake, i can bear with it.
How would you solve the problem of lightships protecting trade in lubeck, and thus propagading more to the upstream nodes?
Using this as an concept for trade, everything ends in China. It was simply the largest and most prosperous region during the games timeframe. The real reason why Britain begun the Opium Wars was due to China swallowing such gigantic amounts of silver, the entire world trade was concentrated on silver flowing towards China.
In Eu4 you simply pull, you don't pay for it. You can pull as much as you want, but there is no bill. Trade is a transaction, a bargain between two parties who barter with one another. Eu4 trade is about pulling stuff towards your home, not real trade as we know it in real life.
The money that England, Netherlands and Portugal made from global trade was spent on buying goods from China, moving the goods towards Europe, making profit with that, and then buying more goods from China with the profits. Europe got the goods, China the money. Porcelain, tea, silk... in exchange for silver. Until the majority of worlds silver reserves were circulating in China and Britain realized "oh snap" and one thing led to another... Opium Wars, burning of Summer Palace, Taiping Rebellion, carving China like a cake, Boxer rebellion, Chinese revolution... All so that Europe could get their precious silver back.
To make the trade more real, a country that pulls trade would have to pay for the local goods it decides to move elsewhere. For a more realistic gameplay, we would have Europeans pulling chinaware and silk from China to Europe around Africa, and meanwhile moving furs from Siberia to China and furs from Americas to China, silver from Peru to China, gold from Mexico to China...
Even the "Triangle trade" fails in the game, simply because Africans do not actually benefit from Europeans moving weapons, cloth, metals, food from Europe to Africa. Instead now Europe collects stuff from Africa, sends stuff from Africa to Europe directly and indirectly via Caribbean.
China was the heart that kept the global trade flow beating for many centuries until late 19th century, and now it looks like it shall reclaim its place somewhere in the middle of the 21st century.
France is lolz in 1.8.
Bordeaux node is easy as cake to monopoly. Burgundy vet not firing means all land is free for you.
England, while better, still is a pushover. Feed release ables English land and 2 free end nodes. So free British Isles.
iberian wedding barely fires anymore so free aragon and genoa node for you.
Weak Castile means you can feed Navarra Spanish lands and cripple them enough to keep beating them up for land for your now kick ass CN's.
Bordeaux node is easy as cake to monopoly. Burgundy vet not firing means all land is free for you.
England, while better, still is a pushover. Feed release ables English land and 2 free end nodes. So free British Isles.
iberian wedding barely fires anymore so free aragon and genoa node for you.
Weak Castile means you can feed Navarra Spanish lands and cripple them enough to keep beating them up for land for your now kick ass CN's.