Are the end trade nodes overpowered in 1.8?

[ddudee]

Could you please evaluate if the trade income of Portugal, England, Bengal and Netherland, or any other, is overpowered?

I think it is. Please take a look at the screens:

 

[kitemasaki]

Could you please evaluate if the trade income of Portugal, England, Bengal and Netherland, or any other, is overpowered?

I think it is. Please take a look at the screens:

They are not. Also, Bengal is not an end node.
You are forgetting (or may not know) that Trade Income does not necessarily tie to the End Node. It relies on the trade coming into them, for sure, but even more so relies on Trade Efficiency. Those nations invest in Trade and don't treat diplomatic tech like the under-the-stairs-cousin. Trade Efficiency can turn a moderate trade node into a gold mine.

 

[Kirikano]

They've been really strong for the last 2 patches thanks to inland steering last patch and the changes this patch, which would pulled way too much trade toward Europe inevitably. I remember playing Novgorod and staying merchant republic with trade ideas, with several hundred light ships and still losing a ton of my trade thanks to all those little HRE merchant republics and whatnot pulling trade from several nodes away. Same deal with Ottomans. With this patch, all those extra provinces in ROTW and extra trade nodes as well as rework in how trade steering boost trade value and power means that end nodes are much wealthier, and end node nations have much more tradepower in end nodes.

 

[Zqrfmb]

Transfers from downstream was giving portugal something like 800 power in the ivory coast, they were making 312 ducats per month towards the end of the game in trade. As songhai, I took tangiers and move my trade capital there and got up to 24% trade power in sevilla and was making 112d/month. I'd say end nodes are indirectly overpowered because of how much sheer momentum their controllers have, except maybe venice unless you play a gulf of aden game.

 

[Illianor123]

End node trade has always been OP. More provinces = more trade = more money for end nodes.

 

[artemis667]

Yep. The current mechanics of the game guarantee that end nodes are more advantageous, because trade power and trade value only ever flow in one direction. The trading powers already have an advantage due to national ideas and the sorts of decisions they take, but the nature of the system adds to that.

Don't get me wrong, I love the current system, trade is more interesting and fun than it's ever been. But there is real potential to improve the mechanic.

 

[yls3431]

Transfers from downstream was giving portugal something like 800 power in the ivory coast

End nodes should be rich thats why they are designed as end nodes. But there is a problem with the above mechanic.
It simply decreses the necessity to compete at the overseas nodes. Just build up your home node and pull everyting towards you. In its current form pulling trade towards you is absurdly important compared to steering.

It should not be even possible to pull trade towards you if there is no actual effort the steer it from the upstream node.

That said I suspect its because Wiz beleives AI would not be able to coordinate such a dynamic trade chain and gives them an edge by this design.

 

[Autoclave]

As scandinavia (denmark) i have 450 naval force limits, nearest competitor has 120. I dont have a single province in caraibas, but i am pulling 2/3 of its income away from spain and portugal its 1600 and nobody has trade ideas yet. Provincial trade power is important, but but whoever controls the sea, controls the trade.

The game needs to have end trade nodes or otherwise you would end up in an infinite loops.

 

[yls3431]

As scandinavia (denmark) i have 450 naval force limits, nearest competitor has 120. I dont have a single province in caraibas, but i am pulling 2/3 of its income away from spain and portugal its 1600 and nobody has trade ideas yet. Provincial trade power is important, but but whoever controls the sea, controls the trade.

The game needs to have end trade nodes or otherwise you would end up in an infinite loops.

The problem is with the AI. As a human its perfectly normal for Scandinavia. But for the sake of argument lets say it was AI Scan who colonised all of Carribeans, who would you think be getting all that trade? England/France/Iberians. And they would even do it by not sending a single ship at Carribean to steer it away.

 

[Enewald]

Add dynamic trade. Every node can transfer into any nearby node. Trade is not predestined flow from Australia to English Channel, it is dynamic exchange of goods and services. You shape the world trade, according to your own will. Or the biggest bully in the yard just steals the lunch money from the others, which is how it went historically.

 

[ChildeR]

They are powerful for sure, but I don't think OP.

Some dynamism would be great in the TN setup. Apparently fully dynamic requires too much performance (some dev said so in an earlier thread), but it should be doable to have it occasionally change via event or decision. Of cource, whether it's worth the programming effort is only known to the them.

 

[zdlugasz]

As scandinavia (denmark) i have 450 naval force limits, nearest competitor has 120. I dont have a single province in caraibas, but i am pulling 2/3 of its income away from spain and portugal its 1600 and nobody has trade ideas yet. Provincial trade power is important, but but whoever controls the sea, controls the trade.

The game needs to have end trade nodes or otherwise you would end up in an infinite loops.

And that is what really is wrong about current system. You have huge navy - go privateering and risk war with Spain, but no magical trade transfer. It is most "funny" when everybody is upping his mercantilism - which means they are closing their markets and you are able to get their trade by patrolling your home waters in Europe.

And current system with start/end nodes does not really exclude two-way pulling/trading - if Paradox only allowed it.

 

[greendevil]

I think the problem is OP steering, especially inland steering.

Too much trade gets steered to the next node just because some stupid, minor random nation gets an OP bonus to steering (and they don't have to do anything for that, just put a merchant there). So all trade ends up in Lubeck -> English channel, no matter what, even at the start of the game (they even get most from the Ragusa node, which in turn is feeded by the east).

My opinion: way more trade should stay in each node to be collected if no real effort is done by other countries to steer it away, and by real effort I mean putting ships, acquiring land, earning trade power with diplomacy, superior tech & ideas and so on.

EDIT: upstream power propagation is also incredibly OP

 

[Autoclave]

The problem is with the AI. As a human its perfectly normal for Scandinavia. But for the sake of argument lets say it was AI Scan who colonised all of Carribeans, who would you think be getting all that trade? England/France/Iberians. And they would even do it by not sending a single ship at Carribean to steer it away.

I think you say a case of those countries lacking merchants. I was sucking most of the money from North Sea -> Lubeck, without a merchant, my power propation helped pulling income downstream, but it was hansa that actually steered the trade. After some time England put a merchant there steering toward english channel. It forced me to react with my own merchant to actually help hansa steer.

And that is what really is wrong about current system. You have huge navy - go privateering and risk war with Spain, but no magical trade transfer. It is most "funny" when everybody is upping his mercantilism - which means they are closing their markets and you are able to get their trade by patrolling your home waters in Europe.
And current system with start/end nodes does not really exclude two-way pulling/trading - if Paradox only allowed it.

Can you elaborate please, what is exactly wrong?

I think the problem is OP steering, especially inland steering.

Too much trade gets steered to the next node just because some stupid, minor random nation gets an OP bonus to steering (and they don't have to do anything for that, just put a merchant there). So all trade ends up in Lubeck -> English channel, no matter what, even at the start of the game (they even get most from the Ragusa node, which in turn is feeded by the east).

My opinion: way more trade should stay in each node to be collected if no real effort is done by other countries to steer it away, and by real effort I mean putting ships, acquiring land, earning trade power with diplomacy, superior tech & ideas and so on.

EDIT: upstream power propagation is also incredibly OP

The game simulates the trade power of coastal provinces, which is probably quite historically accurate. If you are some land locked country, there will always be some dude on a neighboring coast that will get better deals for the goods you produce. Your goods will go where they can be sold for a higher price. I read a few articles about Hanseatic league and i believe that game simulates it very well. Especially their fall from grace to dutch merchants, which is again represented in game by English Channel pulling money out of Lubeck.

 

[Kipperian]

I like the trade system as it is now.

 

[kitemasaki]

I like the trade system as it is now.

I don't think you can like something you don't even know is broken. It actually is bugged right now, so how can you like a bugged version? I think people have brought up some good points. The upstream bonus is kind of outdated now as are some of the passives. This was all ok and not that noticeable before, but with the massive rework and new nations, you lose large chunks of your income to OPMs due to their inherit passives. Those stack up pretty quickly and drain your economy. It doesn't balance out when you look at a nation that starts eating up those OPMs and they don't have much more passive 'power' than all those OPMs combined.

 

[Denkt]

It should be no presence, no steering.
You should have to build a global trade empire, not just camp a thousend ship in your home node and get 25% of the world trade.

 

[kitemasaki]

It should be no presence, no steering.
You should have to build a global trade empire, not just camp a thousend ship in your home node and get 25% of the world trade.

Agreed.

 

[Kirkegaard]

It should be no presence, no steering.
You should have to build a global trade empire, not just camp a thousend ship in your home node and get 25% of the world trade.

I agree with that, with the current system I had more or less unlimited money in my 1.8 games as the Ottomans, France and Portugal. All major powers yes, but should not be possible to stockpile 100K gold when running with the best advisors and maximum army and navy. It is simply not possible to spend the money as fast as you earn them.

edit: And I'm not even an trade expert, could sure be optimized a lot.

 

[yls3431]

It should be no presence, no steering.
You should have to build a global trade empire, not just camp a thousend ship in your home node and get 25% of the world trade.

I agree.

Also I cant imagine why France/Munster/Ulm etc. start with the same amount of merchants. I hope some official would care to explain the logic behind this.