Are STRAT Bombers Worthless?

[unmerged(58104)]

If you mean, STRATs with the USSR... if I was going to do it as an AAR, the first thing I would need is a catchy title... "Red Wings in the Sunset"?

You could consider loading up as the USSR in the '44 scenario. That way you don't have to bother with all the inf builds. IIRC the USSR even has 15+ strat's in that scenario, although probably obsolete. If you techrush those you could see for example how badly you could hit the UK after you clean the continent?

 

[Easy-Kill]

Update : October 16th, 1941.

The German advance into Russia is bogging down in the Autumn mud and snow, after capturing 61 Russian provinces in the first campaigning season.

The Germans started the Russian campaign with 381 total ICs, and captured 17 more ICs worth of Russian Factories... after allowing for 20% non-core usage, the Prince of Terror Minister, and all IC modifiers like CP and Tech. That should give them 398 total ICs.

In fact, they now have only 312 total ICs... they are short by -86 IC, representing a -22% loss in production due to my STRAT-Bombing campaign. Since TC is a direct function of IC, their TC limit has also been reduced by -22%... not counting the new OTM and Partisan load from the conquered territory.

It's a delicate balancing-act... I want to hurt the Germans badly enough that they cannot force the Bitter Peace on the Russians... but not hurt them so badly that the USSR quickly defeats them and occupies Europe.

My advice with regards to this would be to prepare a force to push up towards Berlin. Aimed to coincide with a big Russian push. then use All the STR and TAC you have to destroy infrastructure that both the Russians and the Germans will get bogged down in. You can also try to split the country and use TAC on Ground attack and STR on infra attack to decimate any reinforcements comming from the west. Hopefully Poland and Czech will become neutral and you can use them as a buffer while you tech up the STR to ICSTRs and prepare to decimate the russian industry.

Of course ,tahts what I would do

 

[noobermenschen]

A cheezy trick. Try buying the Bearn from France... even at +200 relations, you'll crap in your pants when you find out how much they want for it.

LOL! Ah yes, the ultimate diplomatic pwning, making the other delegation crap their pants in negotiations...

A cheezy trick I agree, but it also takes care of my other worry, having the Nepalese Royal Household division jump into a 20 division saloon fight and giving the enemy a 5-15% decryption bonus because they are so far behind in their techs. It could also be considered an equivalent to the Gurkhas, though the arrangements are a bit different.

BTW, what are your Commonwealth Allies doing? I would like to rely on them to help out in Africa, do they help out on their own? Does anyone have much experience with MC'd Commonwealth units in Africa? Do they keep trying to go back home or do they follow orders?

 

[unmerged(55727)]

IIRC you need to kick Italy out of Africa for the surrender event to fire after landing in Italy proper.

Not correct. You only need to land in Sicilly and wait. Amph. Assault from Malta is the easiest way to do it.

 

[unmerged(56137)]

Not correct. You only need to land in Sicilly and wait. Amph. Assault from Malta is the easiest way to do it.

thats not true, you need to kick italy out of africa first. You need to control tripoli, benghazi and tobruk in lybia, addis ababa in ethopia as well as tunis before you start invading the south of italy.

 

[blue emu]

Update : October 21st, 1941.

With the weather over Europe deteriorating, the aerial slug-fest continues at white heat... the German defenders have been using a 10-Squadron uber-stack of Fighters and Interceptors, and repeated engagements over the Netherlands have knocked several of my bomber formations out of the fight and driven my daily reinforcement requirements back up over 50 ICs-per-day.

The vicious series of Air battles have also caused enough attrition to the Luftwaffe to put them temporarily out of the fight, however... and Bomber Command has siezed this opportunity to launch a fan of unescorted raids deep into the industrial heart of Germany. Factories in Berlin, Dresden, Breslau and Leipzig are all heavily hit by unescorted raids, with no interference from the wounded Luftwaffe. The German industrial index has dropped sharply to 291/197... a -27% reduction from its nominal value of nearly 400/270.

On the Eastern Front, the German progress has almost halted in the bitter winter weather... but Toropets has fallen, bringing the Heer within 150 km of Moscow. British Intelligence estimates that the Germans and their Axis allies have an advantage in Infantry Divisions, but their Russian opponents have considerably more Armor and Motorized Divisions... perhaps twice as many. Does this presage a rally by the Soviets once the coming spring weather restores mobility to the Eastern Front?

 

[unmerged(58898)]

are you going for just infa/structural raids or troop raids?
why dont you just target their air bases and then strike?
what are the values of the tac compared to the str for this kind of game?

very well done but would like some pictures please sir

 

[Gen. Skobelev]

If you mean, STRATs with the USSR... if I was going to do it as an AAR, the first thing I would need is a catchy title... "Red Wings in the Sunset"?

Yes, that's what I meant. Perhaps you could include Antonov A-40 in the future thread?

Update : October 21st, 1941.

With the weather over Europe deteriorating, the aerial slug-fest continues at white heat... the German defenders have been using a 10-Squadron uber-stack of Fighters and Interceptors, and repeated engagements over the Netherlands have knocked several of my bomber formations out of the fight and driven my daily reinforcement requirements back up over 50 ICs-per-day.

The vicious series of Air battles have also caused enough attrition to the Luftwaffe to put them temporarily out of the fight, however... and Bomber Command has siezed this opportunity to launch a fan of unescorted raids deep into the industrial heart of Germany. Factories in Berlin, Dresden, Breslau and Leipzig are all heavily hit by unescorted raids, with no interference from the wounded Luftwaffe. The German industrial index has dropped sharply to 291/197... a -27% reduction from its nominal value of nearly 400/270.

Would it be viable to bomb German airbases (and infra in those provinces, naturally) to keep German air forces grounded more? Or is the AI intelligent enough to fly damaged air squadrons to undamaged bases for repair? After all, if infra and air base were both close to zero, repairs and org regain would be very slow keeping the Luftwaffe out of sky longer thus allowing unopposed IC bombing all over the Reich in longer periods.

On the Eastern Front, the German progress has almost halted in the bitter winter weather... but Toropets has fallen, bringing the Heer within 150 km of Moscow. British Intelligence estimates that the Germans and their Axis allies have an advantage in Infantry Divisions, but their Russian opponents have considerably more Armor and Motorized Divisions... perhaps twice as many. Does this presage a rally by the Soviets once the coming spring weather restores mobility to the Eastern Front?

Sounds almost ideal situation for experimenting with SAC. Germany should not win if SU will build up infantry but SU should not start winning too soon so the warring in east should keep on going. So it may well be that SAC holds the sword of Damocles over Germany. How's SU IC doing? And any lend-lease for UK yet?

 

[blue emu]

are you going for just infa/structural raids or troop raids?

At the moment, my standard formula when attacking a new area is to use all of my available Bombers (all those not already committed to duties in other map-areas) to launch simultaneous Installation Strikes against AA-guns and Radars, and Logistical Strikes against Infrastructure... with the intention of lowering my losses to AA-fire, interfering with German Fighter coordination and preventing repairs. Once I am satisfied with the results of the Installation Strikes and Logistical Strikes, I split one 4-Squadron wing into two 2-Squadron wings, and use one sub-wing to keep suppressing AA-guns while the other 2-Squadron wing continues to attack Infrastructure. All of the other Bombers then start hammering Factories.

The only Tactical raids that I was making were against troop concentrations in occupied France... not with the intention of hurting his Ground units, but only to lure his Fighters and Interceptors into Air combat within Interceptor range of my 10-factor Airbases in Southern England. In the above posts, whenever you see a reference to "Rhubarbs" or "Intruder Missions"... that's what I'm talking about: decoy missions (usually against Ground Troops) whose only purpose is to provoke an Air battle within my Fighter range. When the heavy Air battles started over the Netherlands, I had to cease these Intruder missions in order to concentrate my Fighters and Interceptors over the Netherlands and the Ruhr.

why dont you just target their air bases and then strike?

I'm playing with Fog-of-War on, and it's hard to find out just which bases the German Interceptors are operating from... he has them all (or almost all) concentrated in a single 10-Squadron uber-stack, and has nearly a dozen bases to choose from... it's the old "shell game".

When I get more Bombers built, I will be in a better position to hit his Airbases... bear in mind that it's pointless to just launch Runway Cratering missions by themselves. They must be combined with Installation Strikes (to prevent unacceptable AA-fire losses to my Bombers) and Logistical Strikes (to slow repairs) in the same area. That requires 12 Squadrons (ie: 3 wings of 4 Squadrons) plus Fighter cover... per area. He might be based in any of five or six areas. I need more planes.

what are the values of the tac compared to the str for this kind of game?

The main handicap for TAC is range, not attack values. I've been using my TACs to "hold down" some of the areas that the STRATs have already worked over... such as the Netherlands... but they cannot reach many of my current targets.

very well done but would like some pictures please sir

The Russian Front, October 21st:

China on the verge of surrender:

A no-fog comparison of Air Strengths:

 

[unmerged(58898)]

a post just for me!
the highlight of my week

 

[blue emu]

Regarding the possibility of suppressing his Fighters by using Runway Cratering missions:

One other point that needs to be mentioned is that the mechanics of AI pathing and range makes such missions highly unprofitable. Unless I have completely misunderstood the game mechanisms, here's how it works:

The AI does not obey the same stacking, basing and range restrictions that the Human player must obey.

Unlike the Human player, who can only stack up to four Squadrons in any one wing, the AI can stack any number of planes in a single wing. AI uber-stacks are a common problem, and I'm dealing with a ten-Squadron stack of German Fighters and Interceptors right now.

Range also works differently for the AI. Unlike the Human player who must rebase a wing to a base within range before running a mission, the AI can run missions anywhere on the map, from any base... as long as it OWNS a base within range of the target. It does NOT need to actually rebase to that base first.

This means that the ten-Squadron uber-stack that has been harrassing me might be operation out of Odessa, or some other East Front base... it might be sitting anywhere on the map, recovering its ORG. As long as he CONTROLS a base near the Netherlands, he can fly Air Superiority missions out of Odessa and still intercept me over the Netherlands.

This makes Runway Cratering missions almost pointless... since the base that I would need to crater (where he is sitting, recovering his ORG) might be on the Russian Front! It might be anywhere...

If I've misunderstood how these game mechanics work, someone correct me.

 

[unmerged(58898)]

this is completely wrong on all accounts
sorry couldn't resist
as far a i know this is correct. but you can confirm by typing fullcontrol on and see where they are based

 

[blue emu]

Yes, that's what I meant. Perhaps you could include Antonov A-40 in the future thread?

If I'm going to do it as an AAR, then I might mod the game slightly... perhaps adding ORG to brigades as well, so they are worth building even for the USSR.

Would it be viable to bomb German airbases (and infra in those provinces, naturally) to keep German air forces grounded more? Or is the AI intelligent enough to fly damaged air squadrons to undamaged bases for repair? After all, if infra and air base were both close to zero, repairs and org regain would be very slow keeping the Luftwaffe out of sky longer thus allowing unopposed IC bombing all over the Reich in longer periods.

See my above comments on unlimited AI mission range... the uber-stack that's been annoying me might be flying its missions out of Odessa, on the Russian Front. If I happen to spot them on a base in Germany, then I'll whack them... but that would require some luck. Naturally I could find them with nofog, but that's cheating.

Sounds almost ideal situation for experimenting with SAC. Germany should not win if SU will build up infantry but SU should not start winning too soon so the warring in east should keep on going. So it may well be that SAC holds the sword of Damocles over Germany. How's SU IC doing? And any lend-lease for UK yet?

The Russians are at 300/222... that's slightly more ICs than Germany (291/197), now that I've reduced the German GDP by -27%.

I've had two Lend-Lease shipments... the scripted "First Shipment" that you get the day the Lend-Lease Act is passed, and one more several months later. I'm building more than a dozen new ICs, as well. They will be finished in December... two more months.

 

[unmerged(11202)]

A few remarks if you do not mind.

If I'm going to do it as an AAR, then I might mod the game slightly... perhaps adding ORG to brigades as well, so they are worth building even for the USSR.

Keep in mind that the AI does not pay any IC at all for brigades. Basically they get them for free when building divisions. This was propably done because of the AI's inability to deploy separate brigades. You can observe this when playing Germany and inheriting Austria's buildqueue after the Anschlus. The infantry divisions under construction cost exactly the same as your own infantry builds, but when finished they usually have a brigade attached depending on what technology the AI has.

See my above comments on unlimited AI mission range... the uber-stack that's been annoying me might be flying its missions out of Odessa, on the Russian Front. If I happen to spot them on a base in Germany, then I'll whack them... but that would require some luck. Naturally I could find them with nofog, but that's cheating.

Yes, the "unlimited" AI range is a real pain and makes runway cratering worthless. The good news is that their aircraft often take a long time to reach their targets as well. It is far better from my experience just to blast their aircraft out of the skies. It will also take up tons of IC to replenish losses.
Btw. how high is the org of the enemy fighters you encounter? For some reason I only seem to face enemy fighters with zero org. Enemy bombers on the other hand do have full org.

The Russians are at 300/222... that's slightly more ICs than Germany (291/197), now that I've reduced the German GDP by -27%.

That is more than the Russians have left in my game, with the Germans now standing at the gate of Moscow. Good work on leveling all those German factories though.

I've had two Lend-Lease shipments... the scripted "First Shipment" that you get the day the Lend-Lease Act is passed, and one more several months later. I'm building more than a dozen new ICs, as well. They will be finished in December... two more months.

I am still waiting for the Second Lend-Lease shipment and it is already January 1942. Good luck on bombing those Germans back into the stone age.

Finally I would like to ad something about your idea on using the USSR for a stratbombing campaign. Allthough it would be strategically not the optimum choice, my experience in France has lead me to reconsider something it. Using strategic bombers at the opening of Barbarossa on Logistical strikes can really slow down the enemy advance and reduce their ESE locally. I doubt it is as effective as using CAS and Tacs to slaugher Axis troops while holding the line, but it could be viable.

Good luck on your strategic bombing campaign and make Arthur "Bomber" Harris proud.

 

[blue emu]

Update : November 4th, 1941.

With Western Europe blanketed by thick clouds and storms, and with reinforcements and replacements running at more than 60 ICs per day, Bomber Command was reluctantly persuaded on October 28th to call a halt to large-scale operations until the weather improves. Small-scale Intruder missions will continue, with the objective of further attritioning German Air-strength.

Six days of rest have brought the reinforcement requirements down by nearly half. Unfortunately, this also means that the German economy will have a chance to recover over the coming weeks. On the other hand... with the German forces in Russia halted by the winter weather, it is unlikely that their TC requirements are being stretched. The Summer campaigning season is the time when German TC-demands are at peak, and long before then our Air Campaign will be back in full swing.

On November 4th, Finland quitted the Axis and signed a seperate peace with the USSR, joining Comintern as a client state. This effectively closes the Northern Front, since the Royal Navy was able to prevent any German landing in Norway. Russia can now use the winter to redeploy their Northern armies southward, to bolster the sagging Front in the Moscow region.

 

[blue emu]

... they usually have a brigade attached depending on what technology the AI has.

Not sure that it even depends on Tech... the AI TACs have Esc-brigades, even though they have not researched any Escort Fighter Techs at all.

Btw. how high is the org of the enemy fighters you encounter? For some reason I only seem to face enemy fighters with zero org. Enemy bombers on the other hand do have full org.

It varies... sometimes the Fighter groups are near zero ORG, sometimes near full.

Finally I would like to ad something about your idea on using the USSR for a stratbombing campaign. Allthough it would be strategically not the optimum choice, my experience in France has lead me to reconsider something it. Using strategic bombers at the opening of Barbarossa on Logistical strikes can really slow down the enemy advance and reduce their ESE locally. I doubt it is as effective as using CAS and Tacs to slaugher Axis troops while holding the line, but it could be viable.

The Russian STRAT force would have only limited application during Barbarossa... Logistical Strikes to slow the German advance and lower ESE, Strategic Strikes on the Romanian Oil-Fields, and perhaps direct Strategic Bombardment after the conquest of Finland and German-Occupied Norway.

One of the main points of a STRAT-bomber strategy as the USSR would be a focus on World War III, not on World War II. Russia can stomp Germany pretty easily just by zerging them with Infantry... but once they crush Germany and reach the French beaches, they have a big problem: none of the forces that they've built to fight the Germans are really of any use fighting the British, Americans and Japanese... with the possible exception of the Airforce, which can be used for Naval Strikes.

A strong STRAT force will help them deal with Japan (in fact, it's ideally suited for that, with all of Japan's ICs gathered in a small area near the Russian Far-East Airbases) and with the UK (again, a dream set-up once they own the French bases)... and the STRATs can be used for long-range Naval Strikes out into the Atlantic, to attrition the American fleet.

 

[blue emu]

Update : December 1st, 1941.

On December 1st, the Empire of Japan declared war on the United States of America, the Philippines, and the Netherlands. Since the Netherlands is our ally, this places us at war with the Japanese. The USA and it's dependancies, the Philippines and Liberia, have agreed to join the Western Allies in an Anti-Fascist Coalition.

Plans are underway to rush additional forces to the Far East, to bolster the dozen or so Divisions already deployed there. Bomber Command is considering dispatching squadrons to the Far East, but "Bomber" Harris is outspoken in his opposition to any diversion of strength away from the European theater.

======== ========= ========= ======== ======== ========

So... decision time. Should I leave the Japanese to the Americans, who have been fully geared-up for two years now? Or should I send large forces to help them crush Japan. What type of forces? Land, Sea or Air... or all three?

USA:
14 Infantry, 1 Cavalry, 8 Motorized, 3 Armor, 3 Marines, 25 Garrisons, 7 HQ.
11 CVs, 3 CVLs, 20 BBs, 32 CAs, 34 CLs, 97 DDs, 18 SSs, 46 TPs.
3 FTR, 14 INT, 3 STR, 10 TAC, 3 NAV.

 

[unmerged(58104)]

So... decision time. Should I leave the Japanese to the Americans, who have been fully geared-up for two years now? Or should I send large forces to help them crush Japan. What type of forces? Land, Sea or Air... or all three?

All three, but especially air and naval forces.

I'd say that you've got enough spare forces in Europe to send over there. The US AI can take ages to do something about the Japanese. :wacko:
Normally I'd at least send enough troops to keep Singapore, together with enough airforces to defend that area and a single carrierfleet.

But you could easily send the majority of the heavy units of the Royal Navy, there's not that much more to do for them in Europe.
You could also consider helping the Americans themselves a bit, but I'd be careful with moving transportfleets around SEA untill the Japanese navy is history.

Regarding airforces I'd send as much as you can spare, especially TACs and some fighters. I'd leave the strategic bombers in Europe initially, save a few for some long range airpatrol. With TACs alone you can kill the Japanese AI controlled navy if necessary as long as you have a few defended bases to work with.

Another idea is, if you have enough landforces for what is at most a secundary theatre, to kick the Japanese out of Siam and former French Indochine. With the bases there in your control you could consider further actions against the Japanese.
Knocking them out of WWII ahead of schedule isn't that hard and has the enormous advantage of letting you concentrate afterwards completely at the Germans.
If you miss the land forces to land on the Japanese Home Isles themself you could take Taiwan & Okinawa and let a minor part of Bomber Command destroy Japan's IC.

 

[BigPoppa1111]

thats not true, you need to kick italy out of africa first. You need to control tripoli, benghazi and tobruk in lybia, addis ababa in ethopia as well as tunis before you start invading the south of italy.

This is incorrect my friend. I was halfway through Egypt in a MP game when the American player gang-banged my Sicilian Defense Force and caused the Italian Surrender event to fire. Naturally, I chose to fight on but the 10 point dissent hit hurt the build queues for awhile.

 

[unmerged(11202)]

So... decision time. Should I leave the Japanese to the Americans, who have been fully geared-up for two years now? Or should I send large forces to help them crush Japan. What type of forces? Land, Sea or Air... or all three?

USA:
14 Infantry, 1 Cavalry, 8 Motorized, 3 Armor, 3 Marines, 25 Garrisons, 7 HQ.
11 CVs, 3 CVLs, 20 BBs, 32 CAs, 34 CLs, 97 DDs, 18 SSs, 46 TPs.
3 FTR, 14 INT, 3 STR, 10 TAC, 3 NAV.

Not that much US ground forces, but they should be getting a lot more built when at war now. Send the bulk the Royal Navy to the Far East along with whatever air superiority units you can spare. Keep at least a minimum of forces to defend your holdings and if you can spare them launch an offensive into Burma. Additionally try to prevent a Japanese invasion of the Dutch East Indies. The Dutch lack the units to mount a succesfull defense and denying the Japanese those resources can help a lot.
I would be interested to see if the Japanese can force China to surrender. If China falls you have a nice challenge in the East as well.

All in all I would go with the Germany first strategy like in history. Once Germany falls the remainder of the Axis will be doomed.