Are "space marines" overpowered (in 2021)?

[pro.gamer.69]

200 per 20w.

That's without doctrine. Is your template not SF?

 

[Znail]

No. They literally won the battle against the best tank in the game. The one you suggest (I assume you meant a 4/10/4, 4/9/4 has 38 combat width) does have 100 (15%-ish) more soft attack, but that's balanced out by having 250 (50%) less hard attack to throw against the space marines' 20% hardness, and around 400 (50%) less breakthrough.

100 soft attack is worth more then 250 hard attack against 20% hardness. Breakthrough matters though, but heavy tanks is an expensive source for that as MT and LT gives as much while costing less.

 

[Cavalry]

That's without doctrine. Is your template not SF?

He said with SF-R-L. Mines is SF-R-R. Whatever, a few less breakthrough is not problems, because the high HP, high Org will help. And there are tons of these waiting in reserve.

 

[CrasherZZ]

How many factories are needed to equip and replace 10 or 20 divisions of typical HT divisions during a live war?

 

[pro.gamer.69]

He said with SF-R-L. Mines is SF-R-R. Whatever, a few less breakthrough is not problems, because the high HP, high Org will help. And there are tons of these waiting in reserve.

200 hard attack is what you get with no doctrine. HP doesn't win battles.

I guess what I'm saying is, that space marine of yours isn't really going to push enemy space marines much better than tanks, though it is much cheaper.

 

[pro.gamer.69]

How many factories are needed to equip and replace 10 or 20 divisions of typical HT divisions during a live war?

It varies massively depending on attrition. However in order to get 20 13/7 HTs in the first place, without any production technologies you would need 380 factories on heavies and 102 factories on mech (3) for a year. However, by 1940 you'll usually have at least tools 3 and dispersed 3, which brings that down to around 182 factories on heavies and 49 on mech. Upkeep, assuming you aren't being encircled, again varies based on how much "bad" fighting you do (fighting AT units, fighting tanks, fighting in attrition terrain) but usually I'd say having enough extra for 10-15 new tanks each year is reasonable.

 

[Bolshevik-]

Space marines seem to be a myth created by bad players to justify why they lost. I'v seen everything from Japan's starting divisions containing something like 5 inf 3 light tanks to 14 4's be called space marines. Its a joke at this point. I now see tank recon companies being banned in rule sets because all of the kids have created fear around these mythical "space marines." Also, all of those templates with heavy TD suck and shouldn't be used. 40 width heavy tanks are better.

 

[pro.gamer.69]

100 soft attack is worth more then 250 hard attack against 20% hardness. Breakthrough matters though, but heavy tanks is an expensive source for that as MT and LT gives as much while costing less.

You're right, their template would have around 30 more attack adjusted for hardness.

 

[Cavalry]

HP doesn't win battles.

I guess what I'm saying is, that space marine of yours isn't really going to push enemy space marines much better than tanks, though it is much cheaper.

They receive less HP damage than HT heavy template because of less hardness, and each HP damage result in less strength reduced, because of more total HP. So it have bigger chance to actually win the province than HT heavy.

On 2 vs 2, the difference is not much. But between 24 these vs 24 infantry, and 6 HT vs 24 infantry; thing can be big difference.

 

[pro.gamer.69]

Space marines seem to be a myth created by bad players to justify why they lost. I'v seen everything from Japan's starting divisions containing something like 5 inf 3 light tanks to 14 4's be called space marines. Its a joke at this point. I now see tank recon companies being banned in rule sets because all of the kids have created fear around these mythical "space marines." Also, all of those templates with heavy TD suck and shouldn't be used. 40 width heavy tanks are better.

For attacking, yes, they are easy to counter. But I'm not sure why you're saying the 8/2 sucks when it's a template that stops heavies, on plains, and only needs 6 (well, really 4) of itself to do while costing 1/9th (so 2/3 total) as much as the heavy... if you can design infantry which holds against tanks in a game where infantry can't really make breakthroughs on its own (at least not without massively outnumbering the enemy and using air) then the Axis will never win. Honestly, the fact that people aren't amazed that there exist infantry templates which can stop good tanks on plains is very confusing to me. Even mechanized can't consistently do that.

 

[pro.gamer.69]

So it have bigger chance to actually win the province.

It doesn't, though, because HP damage doesn't affect unit stats until the battle is resolved.

 

[Bolshevik-]

For attacking, yes, they are easy to counter....

I'v never won a game of HoI 4 by defending.

 

[Bolshevik-]

It doesn't, though, because HP damage doesn't affect unit stats until the battle is resolved.

For attacking, yes, they are easy to counter. But I'm not sure why you're saying the 8/2 sucks when it's a template that stops heavies, on plains, and only needs 6 (well, really 4) of itself to do while costing 1/9th (so 2/3 total) as much as the heavy... if you can design infantry which holds against tanks in a game where infantry can't really make breakthroughs on its own (at least not without massively outnumbering the enemy and using air) then the Axis will never win. Honestly, the fact that people aren't amazed that there exist infantry templates which can stop good tanks on plains is very confusing to me. Even mechanized can't consistently do that.

10 TD + 10 mech is better for defending.

 

[CrasherZZ]

It varies massively depending on attrition. However in order to get 20 13/7 HTs in the first place, without any production technologies you would need 380 factories on heavies and 102 factories on mech (3) for a year. However, by 1940 you'll usually have at least tools 3 and dispersed 3, which brings that down to around 182 factories on heavies and 49 on mech. Upkeep, assuming you aren't being encircled, again varies based on how much "bad" fighting you do (fighting AT units, fighting tanks, fighting in attrition terrain) but usually I'd say having enough extra for 10-15 new tanks each year is reasonable.

Wow! Doesn't seem you could build much of anything else then - like bombers and ships, ART, AT, AA, etc?

 

[Cavalry]

It doesn't, though, because HP damage doesn't affect unit stats until the battle is resolved.

You read it wrong. From the other thread, the damage did update like Current HP/Total HP * damage deal out. The things that don't update is the stats.

 

[pro.gamer.69]

10 TD + 10 mech is better for defending.

Oh, absolutely. But those start to approach the cost of tanks, and more importantly aren't space marines.

 

[Bolshevik-]

Oh, absolutely. But those start to approach the cost of tanks, and more importantly aren't space marines.

Yeah but usually you don't need to defend the entire front line.

 

[pro.gamer.69]

You read it wrong. From the other thread, the damage did update like Current HP/Total HP * damage deal out. The things that don't update is the stats.

Can you link me/quote me that? I'm a little confused. My point was that taking damage doesn't make you do less damage/have less defense until the battle resolves. I may have worded it badly.

 

[pro.gamer.69]

Yeah but usually you don't need to defend the entire front line.

What do you mean? If, for the cost of 2/3s a tank (at most, since this was on plains), you could render it impossible for tanks to push, why wouldn't you?

 

[Bolshevik-]

What do you mean? If, for the cost of 2/3s a tank (at most, since this was on plains), you could render it impossible for tanks to push, why wouldn't you?

Because I find in tank combat quality trumps quantity. I honestly can't see those tank templates being any good.