Are ottomans even stronger?

[YemG]

Instutions works as a treat tho, I got the renaissance easily, but playing as Russia colonialism doesnt find you until the 1600s......

You should not wait for instutions to reach you all the time...You should build a farmland to sky!

Renaissance = Wait if are at hre or develop 2-3 province till they reach 20 dev in europe.(For muscowy Novgorod and Muscow is enough to embrace it cheaply after 1 tile spread arround.)
Colonialsm = Wait if you are in hre/france/iberia or pick colonialism and unlock only 1 idea and try to start in your empire. Then dump the idea.(You can see at least 1 post a day at reddit about colonialism start in africa or east asia)
Printing press = Wait if you are in hre or border large protestand/reformed.
Global Trade = Depends on CoT around you.
Manufactories = Just build manufactories with space in between. Don't Build manufactories between 2 neighboor province unless super rich.
Enlightenment = Well I did not play any game last 1700 so far but according to wikipedia reach dip tech 20 and hire natural scientist or build lots of univercities.

My Russia playthrough

Prussia is my march, riga and byzantium are my vassal. Don't go too much east until Printing Press. Technology is in west not in east. For monarch points you have a great disinherit button I once used 6 in row to get a good heir.My worst ruler got 11 mana + 3 from PP and advissors give 5-7 mana each month. I could start colonialism in moscow in 1500 with spare points I had. (ahead in all technologies)

 

[RadRussian]

I was going for Sudanese Expedition achievement so I allied Ottomans for an easy mode. When I checked back on them, I saw this. They lost a lot of land to Byz but rebounded and took all of their land back at the same rate they would normally do. Having Crimea is what encourages them to push into hordes lands, I believe.

 

[seriousgigi]

^ yeah that is i call as historical.

even they lost a lot lands in long war against european coalition after second siege of wien in 1683, ottos reconquered all of their losses from russia, venice and austria except hungary and podolia from plc.

 

[RadRussian]

You should not wait for instutions to reach you all the time...You should build a farmland to sky!

Renaissance = Wait if are at hre or develop 2-3 province till they reach 20 dev in europe.(For muscowy Novgorod and Muscow is enough to embrace it cheaply after 1 tile spread arround.)
Colonialsm = Wait if you are in hre/france/iberia or pick colonialism and unlock only 1 idea and try to start in your empire. Then dump the idea.(You can see at least 1 post a day at reddit about colonialism start in africa or east asia)
Printing press = Wait if you are in hre or border large protestand/reformed.
Global Trade = Depends on CoT around you.
Manufactories = Just build manufactories with space in between. Don't Build manufactories between 2 neighboor province unless super rich.
Enlightenment = Well I did not play any game last 1700 so far but according to wikipedia reach dip tech 20 and hire natural scientist or build lots of univercities.

My Russia playthrough

Prussia is my march, riga and byzantium are my vassal. Don't go too much east until Printing Press. Technology is in west not in east. For monarch points you have a great disinherit button I once used 6 in row to get a good heir.My worst ruler got 11 mana + 3 from PP and advissors give 5-7 mana each month. I could start colonialism in moscow in 1500 with spare points I had. (ahead in all technologies)

I wish it was more obvious that you can spread institutions by just developing. The tooltip doesn't say it explicitly and I had to find out about it via forums and wiki.

 

[ywxiao]

^ yeah that is i call as historical.

even they lost a lot lands in long war against european coalition after second siege of wien in 1683, ottos reconquered all of their losses from russia, venice and austria except hungary and podolia from plc.

Their income and FL are way higher than historical, so either nerf that land or put a minimum autonomy on it, link it to the constatinople decision so if you don't want free empire rank you can avoid it.

 

[Emre Yigit]

Their income and FL are way higher than historical, so either nerf that land or put a minimum autonomy on it, link it to the constatinople decision so if you don't want free empire rank you can avoid it.

Their income (I don't know what FL is) is way lower than historical.

Just calling up data from 1547, we see central government revenues of about 129mn akçes, equal to about 2.2mn Venetian ducats per annum, and that was a bad year. Twenty years later, we are at about 200mn akçes.

Now, I don't have data for the 1440s, but the revenues from the Anadolu and Rumeli beylerbeyliks in 1527 were 128mn (a very very good year). Even assuming that they were a quarter that figure in 1444, we are talking about 42mn akçes, or (prior to Mehmet II's debasements), about 1mn ducats per annum.

I can't remember the exact figures - it's been a long time - but, by comparison, Henry VII of England, squeezing hard, could raise £120K in ordinary revenue (say double that - a generous assumption - with Parliamentary grants) in the early 1500s. Now, England was poor - France, Spain, Austria, even some Italian states had greater revenues than that - but to say that the Ottos in 1444 are too rich is wrong.

 

[grommile]

We have no idea how the in-game "ducat" scales to real money.

 

[Emre Yigit]

We have no idea how the in-game "ducat" scales to real money.

I agree, but what I wanted to point out was that the EU4 relative income calculations are off, and not in the Otto's favour. (Not quite as bad as China, though!)

 

[grommile]

FL = force limit.

Of course, the Ottomans' starting force limit is smaller than the army they pitched up to the gates of Constantinople with, so the claim their force limit is too high is questionably founded, too.

 

[ywxiao]

Their income (I don't know what FL is) is way lower than historical.

Just calling up data from 1547, we see central government revenues of about 129mn akçes, equal to about 2.2mn Venetian ducats per annum, and that was a bad year. Twenty years later, we are at about 200mn akçes.

Now, I don't have data for the 1440s, but the revenues from the Anadolu and Rumeli beylerbeyliks in 1527 were 128mn (a very very good year). Even assuming that they were a quarter that figure in 1444, we are talking about 42mn akçes, or (prior to Mehmet II's debasements), about 1mn ducats per annum.

I can't remember the exact figures - it's been a long time - but, by comparison, Henry VII of England, squeezing hard, could raise £120K in ordinary revenue (say double that - a generous assumption - with Parliamentary grants) in the early 1500s. Now, England was poor - France, Spain, Austria, even some Italian states had greater revenues than that - but to say that the Ottos in 1444 are too rich is wrong.

Okay so 1527 Ottos made 2.2mn ducats, 1 pound is roughly 10 guilders ~ 10 Ducats, that gives England 1.2mn.
In game Ottos has 87.31 to England's 37.28, a good 20% higher. Ottos can easily exceed this even in 1.17 by going after Persia instead of Europe/Africa, just because they don't have their historic borders does not mean they are weaker.

I should also mention the west is tech 9 and Ottos are tech 8, but starting from 1444 I've never seen this happen.

My point is if you look at their income, their FL, their tech, their ideas, they are consistently stronger than they should be from a historical sense. And if we are looking at gameplay, which should be more important, they make the entire region boring to play, you HAVE to completely wipe them or else they will take every opportunity to be obnoxious.

FL = force limit.

Of course, the Ottomans' starting force limit is smaller than the army they pitched up to the gates of Constantinople with, so the claim their force limit is too high is questionably founded, too.

They can easily exceed it in a couple decades so it is accurate.

 

[TorquemadaStark]

Yeah this patch broke the game for me. It impossible to face the Ottomans now. I played a game as Muscovy to Russia. Started off very good with Poland not entering into PU with Lithuania, by 1540 I was bordering Warzaw in the west and Timurids in the east. I was allied to Austria who had PU with Hungary. Now I had so much AE in the east, so I knew the Ottos could enter the coalition and I would face too many enemies. I decided to preemptively attack Otto to weaken them. And this is my second attempt at such a campaign.

Even being 2 military techs above and completed Offensive ideas, the Otto rekt me and Austria. They field armies of 150 000+ men. Austria is stupid as **** and sent its armies to siege in the caucausus whilst the Otto was spreading armies out and carpet sieging my lands. And when I finally got into battle with them, the tech superiority meant nothing. Like I said, this is the second time this happens, first time as well I faced an impossible Otto. Its just not Ottos armies tho, Otto always allies a **** ton of nations, this time Iraq, Tunisia and Ethiopia, but in my first game they allied FRANCE!

Instutions works as a treat tho, I got the renaissance easily, but playing as Russia colonialism doesnt find you until the 1600s......

This thread now has motivated me to take up arms as Byzantium again, and smack the Ottoderps back in the ground. EU games give you the most important lesson of your life: that year 1453 was the worst year ever

Mhmm. Bread.

This game needs some Stellaris options of diplomacy; non-aggression pacts, defensive alliances, inviting specific countries to a war (without entering an alliance with these nations).

Yeah, actually Stellaris's Heinlein patch has made that game immensely more interesting. EU4 has some stuff to actually learn from it now. Except Paradox still should figure out some benefit for surplus food, when there's no more space left. Otherwise, micromanaging farms is the destiny of every galactic conqueror. At least we don't have to do THAT in EU4. (That, and air combat, which literally killed HoI4 for me, I'm going back to that game only after some 6 - 7 DLC when stuff's changed.)

 

[grommile]

They can easily exceed it in a couple decades so it is accurate.

The territory that gives them that smaller-than-Constantinople force limit is the territory they had IRL at the taking of Constantinople; their borders didn't expand between 1444 and 1453.

 

[Emre Yigit]

Okay so 1527 Ottos made 2.2mn ducats, 1 pound is roughly 10 guilders ~ 10 Ducats, that gives England 1.2mn.
In game Ottos has 87.31 to England's 37.28, a good 20% higher. Ottos can easily exceed this even in 1.17 by going after Persia instead of Europe/Africa, just because they don't have their historic borders does not mean they are weaker.

I should also mention the west is tech 9 and Ottos are tech 8, but starting from 1444 I've never seen this happen.

My point is if you look at their income, their FL, their tech, their ideas, they are consistently stronger than they should be from a historical sense. And if we are looking at gameplay, which should be more important, they make the entire region boring to play, you HAVE to completely wipe them or else they will take every opportunity to be obnoxious.



They can easily exceed it in a couple decades so it is accurate.

All this would be correct, except that the English sovereign (= pound) was half a troy ounce, that is to say 15.5 grams, while the Venetian ducat was 3.5 grams of gold. Assuming equivalent purity (and that's being generous to the English), that's 4.4 ducats per pound, not 10 (in reality, 4, because the English gold content was variable and generally less). So, 0.5-0.55mn, not 1.2mn for England.

 

[Sallzz]

as serbia I had Austria and Poland as allies. there was a war, it was:

me + austria + hungary + poland + lithuania and their vassals + venice and french rented soldiers. ottomans had something around 60k soldiers, we had double, by far, it was not enough.

I saw 5k ottomans almost winning against a 30k stack.

I accepted it, "its ok, i should play with more patient"... started new game, waited ottomans to get owned in some wars, saw them with 10k men only, declared war and they hired 30 mercenaries, that is not the worst, they had 30 mercenaries and still a +40 gold income!

I almost done the lazarus achievement once, failed because missing only one region to be done xD But i feel the ottomans now are more agressive, they see you allied with half the world and dont care, because they will stomp everything, just like France was. This isnt even a problem against the player, in some of my games with other nation I see the ottomans taking half half hungary in a single war.

 

[panionios]

Playing Muscowy. First game Very Hard, second game Hard. It seems they take Quantity now as an idea (which I never remember them taking - and they take it quite early). That makes them a formidable opponent in the early stages, meaning that you should avoid bordering them. In first game they managed to reach 700k troops (even though I took the entire Balkan region from them - I reached 1.2m). Until Mil tech lvl 15 onwards, of course, when you can beat them, and from lvl 19 when you can beat the shit out of them.

 

[Gremorin]

Mehmed gives so much monarch power for 50 years that the Ottomans manage to stay ahead in tech/ideas and also develop the provinces so much. Also the new Harem system gives much better heirs than ever ( i had a case of the heir of Mehmed being a 6/6/4). So even if you beat them away from the Balkans they just redevelop all the provinces in Asia and expand to the east while you have a 15 year truce. That means they are as strong as ever by the 2nd war and if Crimea becomes their march/vassal with the new event, you have no chance (by then Crimea will have Theodoro/Circassia as vassals at least and most of the times in 1.18 i see Crimea ally Nogai and Kazan and eat up the Golden Horde in the first 20-30 years). So Ottomans get all those terittories for free

In all my 1.18 games i need Hungary and Austria or Poland but in my good runs i needed the Mamluks additionaly to create a 2nd front and make the Ottomans lose manpower and time (their navy is also useful for bonus warscore from more blockades). A single front is much harder since allied AI is scared of attrition and loses in equal forces battles so it prefers to stay away more. Before 1.18 even Hungary alone as ally was enough with Hunyadi as general but ok the AI plays smarter now and creates a doomstack instead of splitting the army. The problem as i said is that allies tend to avoid the doomstack more often than not, running around in circles.

One funny thing in my first war: I was fighting Venice as Byzantium with Hungary then Ottomans declare war on me. Austria and Mamluks come to my defense. The Ottomans of course ignore my allies and come to me straight away. So i was at Naxos, they go to Negroponte with the 35k doomstack. I trap them there with my galleys, i win the war with venice and take Naxos and Negroponte from Venice. Of course that means the Doomstack cant fight me, it has to return all the way to Asia By that time 5 years had passed, 100% warscore... Thus was lucky and hadn't planned this ahead (usually the Ottomans would have expanded east first seeing my allies), but yes it is an exploit/viable tactic. Now if you dont have Byzantium, i am afraid the Ottomans are 9/10 times too strong by the time you are able to declare war on them (for example if you are Muscovy and the Kazan/Crimea alliance has happened)

 

[Emre Yigit]

as serbia...

I can't comment on individual battles as I can't see them, but maybe (as Serbia) you have come to appreciate why Stefan Lazarevic decided to stay in bed with the Ottomans, fighting bravely at the battle of Ankara against Tamerlane in 1402, or why, 51 years later, Serbian troops were present at the siege of Constantinople, on the Ottoman side, despite continual attempts to wriggle free of the Ottoman yoke.

Playing Muscowy. First game Very Hard, second game Hard. It seems they take Quantity now as an idea (which I never remember them taking - and they take it quite early). That makes them a formidable opponent in the early stages, meaning that you should avoid bordering them. In first game they managed to reach 700k troops (even though I took the entire Balkan region from them - I reached 1.2m). Until Mil tech lvl 15 onwards, of course, when you can beat them, and from lvl 19 when you can beat the **** out of them.

The issue, I think, is that by level 19, we are in 1648 - and I would guess that few players have the patience to wait for the eventual decline of the OE.


My beef with the Ottos is not that they are too strong in the first 200 years, but that the game does not simulate how New World gold destabilised their economy after 1560 or so and that they are a little too strong in the last 100 years, if they can keep up technologically. But, honestly, it's not as if I've run a thousand hands-off games.

 

[Sallzz]

I can't comment on individual battles as I can't see them, but maybe (as Serbia) you have come to appreciate why Stefan Lazarevic decided to stay in bed with the Ottomans, fighting bravely at the battle of Ankara against Tamerlane in 1402, or why, 51 years later, Serbian troops were present at the siege of Constantinople, on the Ottoman side, despite continual attempts to wriggle free of the Ottoman yoke.




The issue, I think, is that by level 19, we are in 1648 - and I would guess that few players have the patience to wait for the eventual decline of the OE.


My beef with the Ottos is not that they are too strong in the first 200 years, but that the game does not simulate how New World gold destabilised their economy after 1560 or so and that they are a little too strong in the last 100 years, if they can keep up technologically. But, honestly, it's not as if I've run a thousand hands-off games.

The Ottomans were a huge threat for a long time, no doubt. But I still judge a bit to much OP for them to face 2~3x more men and still win every single battle. There was also a crusade called against them btw.

that was a perfect game, but I screwed it later, thinking I was already a huge power xD

 

[grommile]

Mehmed gives so much monarch power for 50 years that the Ottomans manage to stay ahead in tech/ideas and also develop the provinces so much. Also the new Harem system gives much better heirs than ever ( i had a case of the heir of Mehmed being a 6/6/4).

I've had fifty years of Mehmet, followed by an equally good heir, under the old system, so that singular example isn't particularly enlightening.

 

[seriousgigi]