Are ottomans even stronger?

[Viperswhip]

I can join in on this, i have never ever seen Ottomans as strong as this. Firstly they + Muscovy won against me (Prussia) and PLU around 1550's, even though Muscovy got badly thrashed.

And now (1570's)they are actually invading and beating a big France (!) + allies all alone. Elan! makes it somewhat even battles, but with alot more troops, 115% disc. and higher tactics than France i have never had a bigger grin on my face ^^.

I am quite fine with it though, seeing now I have 2 endgame countries to have fun with, and they were a monster in that period. Only sad thing is that they never much use it against Europe both these wars were defensive.

I will just say this, I "play" tons of observer games every patch, even if I just leave it on when I am doing other stuff. Based on that experience I decide what I need to do in my personal games.

Since, probably release, the Ottos have been very high on the priority list, higher even than France, with Austria, Poland/Lith and Russia following up that list (England never really gets off their island except for colonies).

If you get to 1550 with someone like Prussia, and I don't know who you started with, and Muscovy was still a going concern you have not prepped your game well. Even the Ottos, you can ally someone like Genoa if you have to, or Venice, and you get at them that way, and then you beat them down like crazy. You do not let mad dogs get to be 400 lbs beasts, why would you let the Ottos?

Now, if you just want to play a tall game in say Gelre, you are probably fine just keeping France in check, but if you want to play the HRE, you need to take the Ottos out before they take out Serbia, Bosnia and Hungary.

 

[seriousgigi]

even if I just leave it on when I am doing other stuff. Based on that experience I decide what I need to do in my personal games.

same here, watching westworld, narcos and other shows while game is observing by itself.

for example ottos didn't touch to wallachia in this one:

Spoiler

 

[Dnote]

Ottomans is the early game boss and France is the late game boss. Ottomans do fall off late game, they will fall behind on units.

But, have Europeans ever seriously dealt with the Ottomans early game? I can't recall it happening before.

Here's the timeline from first game in RoM, I played as Spain and never fought the Ottomans. Even though I was allied with Austria, they never called me into the fights with the Ottomans, though France regularly beat up the Castile, Burgundy and Austria alliance, until I completed three military idea groups to compete against them (troops still weren't as good as the French, but close enough).

 

[seriousgigi]

did wiz play that ethiopia?

 

[Dnote]

did wiz play that ethiopia?

They were really strong early game, but are currently massively behind on tech because they're struggling to get institution spread.

I don't think my game is typical, even though I'm a European nation I've largely ignored Europe other than fighting France (and a bit of Italy), which resulted in Burgundy losing lots until I finally beat France and took the southern coast. The majority of my effort has been colonisation and trade.

But, it shows that the AI is capable of dealing with the Ottomans, they aren't an impossible force, or at least they aren't always.

 

[Meleya]

Dunno, I just started playing them. I did notice, however, that Ragusa is always, or a lot of times..in a trade league with Albania..so that's a nice, free powerful province for the ottomans that they don't usually get to snag. So, that guarantee means nothing lol. Other than some cool events, I didn't notice anything yet

 

[theKLR]

I will just say this, I "play" tons of observer games every patch, even if I just leave it on when I am doing other stuff. Based on that experience I decide what I need to do in my personal games.

Since, probably release, the Ottos have been very high on the priority list, higher even than France, with Austria, Poland/Lith and Russia following up that list (England never really gets off their island except for colonies).

If you get to 1550 with someone like Prussia, and I don't know who you started with, and Muscovy was still a going concern you have not prepped your game well. Even the Ottos, you can ally someone like Genoa if you have to, or Venice, and you get at them that way, and then you beat them down like crazy. You do not let mad dogs get to be 400 lbs beasts, why would you let the Ottos?

Now, if you just want to play a tall game in say Gelre, you are probably fine just keeping France in check, but if you want to play the HRE, you need to take the Ottos out before they take out Serbia, Bosnia and Hungary.

Where did I say Muscovy was a concern? I dont quite get your point.

I didnt influence eastern europe or the balkans at all, i never do if i do play prussia. You mean that Ottos isnt stronger this patch because i "let" them? Think you are mistaken me adding in a simple observation with me actually whining about it.

For one thing, as I said, i quite enjoy AI blobs to last to lategame so it will still be somewhat fun/challenge after 1600's. So i deliberately dont meddle too much. If i really wanted to take them out and that was my only goal, that would have no problem.

Again, i like Ottos beeing stronger...

 

[fatrat]

What is causing complaints is that people will always complain. In every patch people will complain that the Ottomans too strong, that Byzantium is harder than the previous patch, that Russia is insanelly nerfed in every patch, etc, etc, etc.

I swear, this sounds like the eu4 version of the 'better nerf irelia' meme from league of legends. The ottomans are doing well this patch? Better nerf the ottomans. (Or really insert any nation here, ming, Russia, France, etc.)

 

[Viperswhip]

Where did I say Muscovy was a concern? I dont quite get your point.

I didnt influence eastern europe or the balkans at all, i never do if i do play prussia. You mean that Ottos isnt stronger this patch because i "let" them? Think you are mistaken me adding in a simple observation with me actually whining about it.

For one thing, as I said, i quite enjoy AI blobs to last to lategame so it will still be somewhat fun/challenge after 1600's. So i deliberately dont meddle too much. If i really wanted to take them out and that was my only goal, that would have no problem.

Again, i like Ottos beeing stronger...

Well, I meant, by that time I often own Muscovy (like they are gone) as Castile, and I've integrated it via Novgorod as well as owning much of the Anatolian region via my vassal Byzantium.

If you want to play a bit slow to make late game more fun I can totally appreciate that, I normally stop playing around 1600.

 

[Gremorin]

They are definitely stronger than ever and in general the enemy AI gives a huge challenge if you aren't overpowered from the start. So facing them with smaller countries can be tricky due to the Allied AI being more cautious and the enemy AI trying to exploit the siege malus for the attacker.

In any case you need to deal with them asap before they grow too strong which of course is easier said than done.

Check the Byzantium thread linked below (i explain in more details but i attach the picture also if you are lazy to read it), my last try in Ironman proves it can be done even with Byzantium but you can't break them as before. In the past you could ruin them to bankruptcy/have rebellions spawn to sack their manpower but i never managed it this time even with 20 war exhaustion and all the loans they got. They just kept coming back since they have so much Monarch points to develop their provinces and have all the money and manpower/troops they need. I have tried good Byzantium runs (meaning that i won the first war at least) more than 15 times since the patch came out, and only 3 times did i manage to kick their ass past the straights but the first 2 times they had become too strong (first in tech and ideas since Mehmed died 70 years old both times).

I imagine it can be easier with Austria or Poland focusing on them but from the start before they get too strong. But for sure they are the strongest country and they face no resistance at all unless the player intervenes. I have never seen them fail badly in 1.18 when i played with Brandenburg and other countries far from them, they swallow everything and then they are too strong. They might get checked/stopped by the AI with some big alliances but they never get broken/fail. On the other hand i have seen France, Austria, Poland, Russia and so on fail more than ever because the AI makes smarter alliances than before (for example Poland failing against Teutonic Order due to Denmark interference)

Sorry for deviating a bit but yes the point is Ottomans don't fail without player interference from my experience. You need to give them 2-3 good whacks in wars before 1500 to have a chance to contain them/keep them under control.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ies-for-byzantium.973749/page-5#post-21994376

 

[Benghi Bon]

They are definitely stronger than ever and in general the enemy AI gives a huge challenge if you aren't overpowered from the start. So facing them with smaller countries can be tricky due to the Allied AI being more cautious and the enemy AI trying to exploit the siege malus for the attacker.

In any case you need to deal with them asap before they grow too strong which of course is easier said than done.

Check the Byzantium thread linked below (i explain in more details but i attach the picture also if you are lazy to read it), my last try in Ironman proves it can be done even with Byzantium but you can't break them as before. In the past you could ruin them to bankruptcy/have rebellions spawn to sack their manpower but i never managed it this time even with 20 war exhaustion and all the loans they got. They just kept coming back since they have so much Monarch points to develop their provinces and have all the money and manpower/troops they need. I have tried good Byzantium runs (meaning that i won the first war at least) more than 15 times since the patch came out, and only 3 times did i manage to kick their ass past the straights but the first 2 times they had become too strong (first in tech and ideas since Mehmed died 70 years old both times).

I imagine it can be easier with Austria or Poland focusing on them but from the start before they get too strong. But for sure they are the strongest country and they face no resistance at all unless the player intervenes. I have never seen them fail badly in 1.18 when i played with Brandenburg and other countries far from them, they swallow everything and then they are too strong. They might get checked/stopped by the AI with some big alliances but they never get broken/fail. On the other hand i have seen France, Austria, Poland, Russia and so on fail more than ever because the AI makes smarter alliances than before (for example Poland failing against Teutonic Order due to Denmark interference)

Sorry for deviating a bit but yes the point is Ottomans don't fail without player interference from my experience. You need to give them 2-3 good whacks in wars before 1500 to have a chance to contain them/keep them under control.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ies-for-byzantium.973749/page-5#post-21994376

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I think it's a shame that any nation starting remotely close to the Ottomans are going to be so much more harder now. I like the Mamluks but I dread having to fight the Ottomans now. Granted, Mamluks aren't especially hard, but the attacker's penalty in forts will surely fuck me over as they have the manpower to fight a manpower war. And then mercs won't be a problem considering they make a horrendous amount of cash from their trade node.

Not enjoying this patch all that much so far.

 

[ywxiao]

Breaking them will create a muslim coalition against you if you didn't start west of constantinople too. I took 300 development off of them in 50 years, and it barely put a dent into them because they took 200 from others. And now I'm looking at 200 AE with everyone muslim including OPM Mamluks.

Ottos get so much babysitting it's not even funny.

 

[Mortmal]

Tried multiple games since last dlc, its true if you dont deal with ottoman early they are completely unstoppable now.Its much much harder for smaller countries in the vicinity, one war and you lose all. If you ally them then you become invicible too....
Any achievement related to pick lands under ottoman sovereignty is now extremely hard.Got 1200 hours on EU4 and now i frankly cant manage it even with good allies.

 

[Benghi Bon]

Breaking them will create a muslim coalition against you if you didn't start west of constantinople too. I took 300 development off of them in 50 years, and it barely put a dent into them because they took 200 from others. And now I'm looking at 200 AE with everyone muslim including OPM Mamluks.

Ottos get so much babysitting it's not even funny.

I completely agree. I've commented way too much in this thread but it really bothers me, I genuinely saw someone earlier today suggest the Ottos get a 10% higher tolerance of overextention for the game to simulate their expansion better.

Why do people want the Ottos to be so freaking indestructible, do they not play around the Ottos at all?

 

[NorthernXY]

Off topic. Considering Brandenburg was nerfed, has anybody seen Prussia form?

 

[Orkonkel]

Off topic. Considering Brandenburg was nerfed, has anybody seen Prussia form?

Only once, and that was OPM Teutoners that formed Prussia.

 

[uberjedi]

Im playing my first 1.18 game as Brandenburg.
Its around 1480 and the Ottoderps have managed to become the target in a coalition war against pretty much all central/eastern european nations.
Good going there Ottoderps.

 

[grommile]

I completely agree. I've commented way too much in this thread but it really bothers me, I genuinely saw someone earlier today suggest the Ottos get a 10% higher tolerance of overextention for the game to simulate their expansion better.

I wouldn't endorse that suggestion, but it does have the interesting property of giving them just enough OE headroom to own all of Syria's core provinces uncored at once. (Syria's cores add up to about 108 development.)

Why do people want the Ottos to be so freaking indestructible, do they not play around the Ottos at all?

Some of them are Ottoboos, some of them got heartily sick of seeing the Ottomans underperform in EU3, some of them want an easy-mode country to play, some of them don't care about the Ottos but enjoy getting a steady stream of Rhomaiaboo tears, some of them want a big blob to fight late-game, ...

 

[YemG]

I just don't like their alliances with France or Russia etc. . Paradox should give them some "Historical Rival" mechanism where appropriate.

But ottoman and france were allies between 1530 to 1800 against evil inbread habsburgs!

 

[Orkonkel]

Mhmm. Bread.

This game needs some Stellaris options of diplomacy; non-aggression pacts, defensive alliances, inviting specific countries to a war (without entering an alliance with these nations).