Are incestious marriages less likely to have kids?

[DickerSandmann]

This is a trend i saw in all my zoroastrian and messalian games forever. The concubines are doing just fine but the sisterwives don't warm up to the idea giving their big beardy brother a baby or two. Is this hard coded? Can it be fixed or does the universe want to tell me no real-live targaryen for you? By the way in the ASOIAF-Mod aka Game of Thrones Mod it works just fine. I would be very thankfull for help.

 

[Knotz]

I dunno if this is just mutual bad luck but yeah, it's a thing for me too. Zoroastrian games have been the only ones where I was getting really desperate to have kids, especially when I was playing a female ruler. I know their divine marriages are less likely to result in inbred but much more likely to result in lunacy but dunno about fertility.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

From defines.lua:

    DIVINE_BLOOD_FERTILITY_MULT = 0.25,                -- Fertility multiplier in a religious close kin marriage

 

[DickerSandmann]

From defines.lua:

    DIVINE_BLOOD_FERTILITY_MULT = 0.25,                -- Fertility multiplier in a religious close kin marriage

thx a lot! Big-ass-retarded-inbred-dynasty here I come!

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

Realistically, the modifier should be around .9 or something, I think, if we want to simulate the higher chances of spontaneous abortions. But I think the .25 represents the general yuck factor that these kinds of relationships can go along with, unless/until the brother and sister come to accept it.

So now I'm going to suggest a mechanic to remove the huge fertility penalty for incestuous siblings who fall in love (presumably meaning they have gotten over the whole yuck factor).

For some reason, this is the first post that made me laugh at the screwed up discussions this game creates.

 

[Sirrobert1]

Is there still a Yuck factor in cultures where it's normal though? If they are raised to think of it as if it's the right thing to do, there shouldn't be a yuck factor.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

Is there stick a Yuck factor in cultures where it's normal though? If they are raised to think of it as if it's the right thing to do, there shouldn't be a yuck factor.

It's a deep-seated biological mechanism - you have a yuck factor with anyone you were raised with.

Now, this means that if you or your sibling were raised at different courts, it might not apply, especially if the culture celebrates it.

BUT, even in Zoroastrian Persia, there was a lot of resistance to the idea. Go read the Encyclopedia Iranica article on Xwedodah, it's really interesting. It seems like it became accepted among the upper classes, but the basic human stigma against incest never completely vanished. Because everyone who was raised with their brother or sister, and wasn't forced to marry them, would instinctively retch at the idea of it.

 

[Fishman786]

It's a deep-seated biological mechanism - you have a yuck factor with anyone you were raised with.

Now, this means that if you or your sibling were raised at different courts, it might not apply, especially if the culture celebrates it.

BUT, even in Zoroastrian Persia, there was a lot of resistance to the idea. Go read the Encyclopedia Iranica article on Xwedodah, it's really interesting. It seems like it became accepted among the upper classes, but the basic human stigma against incest never completely vanished. Because everyone who was raised with their brother or sister, and wasn't forced to marry them, would instinctively retch at the idea of it.

This sort of thing probably became popular partly because of the 'yuck factor'. If you want to mark your imperial dynasty out as something with cosmic significance one of the ways you can accomplish that is to do something unique, a violation of the normal laws of nature, almost akin to a sacrifice.

 

[LeSingeAffame]

So now I'm going to suggest a mechanic to remove the huge fertility penalty for incestuous siblings who fall in love (presumably meaning they have gotten over the whole yuck factor).

You can always give a fertility bonus to a couple if they love each other. That would reduce the impact of the DIVINE_BLOOD_FERTILITY_MULT

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

You can always give a fertility bonus to a couple if they love each other. That would reduce the impact of the DIVINE_BLOOD_FERTILITY_MULT

But that would also apply to all other lovers. The point would be to specifically remove the yuck factor penalty from incest.

 

[Helios Panoptes]

 

[Sirrobert1]

That is one contained family tree.

 

[Cipher3]

Ptolemy VIII with both his sister and her daughter. A true practitioner.

 

[Sirrobert1]

Ptolemy VIII with both his sister and her daughter. A true practitioner.

You sure? I can't see him with daughter. Ptolemy X and Ptolemy XI had some interesting intermingling though.

 

[St. LongEar]

It's a deep-seated biological mechanism - you have a yuck factor with anyone you were raised with.

Now, this means that if you or your sibling were raised at different courts, it might not apply, especially if the culture celebrates it.

BUT, even in Zoroastrian Persia, there was a lot of resistance to the idea. Go read the Encyclopedia Iranica article on Xwedodah, it's really interesting. It seems like it became accepted among the upper classes, but the basic human stigma against incest never completely vanished. Because everyone who was raised with their brother or sister, and wasn't forced to marry them, would instinctively retch at the idea of it.

Let's not make it up. There is no yuck factor in biological mechanism - actually it is completelly opposite. Yuck factor is only implemented by social factor and fear of having inbreeding and by forcing this fear on others. If we would make an experiment with siblings who were raised seperatelly and they would meet up, without knowing that they are sibblings(or even their parents would work just fine) - there would be a higher chance that they would fall in love than otherwise... There are plenty of examples on "yellow press" on RL situations anyway... So those sibblings would click, because they match some of genetical material, as similar people are looking for similar people, because there is stress factor, that is more important than exchanging of genes to DNA supply.

Keep in mind, that Iran is muslim country(and one of the most islamic country in the world) now and not zoroastrian, so even Encyclopedia would have muslim views - not zoroastrian. Muslim society is strange - it teaches to hate brother, then bundling up with brother to hate father and so on... and islam society produces inbreeding results like no others, because they marry each other cousins...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...px-Global_prevalence_of_consanguinity.svg.png

As for reading Encyclopedia Iranica... you have enough persian people around to ask, than believe in something that is written. I had a coworker from Iran who had been married by parents - so it is still a society, where has to be considered father factor, who decides whom you are marrying - that applies not only to girls, but to guys as well, especially whimps.

 

[Sirrobert1]

Actually, evolution has a few built in mechanisms that help to prevent incest, because it is horrible for the overall population.
You will generally be less attracted to individuals you grew up with, and you can (subconsciously) "smell" genes of your partner, and will be more attracted to someone with more different genes.

It's not very powerful though, and culture and the likes will overwrite it.

 

[Sonmi]

You sure? I can't see him with daughter. Ptolemy X and Ptolemy XI had some interesting intermingling though.

Ptomely VIII got with his sister, Cleo II, who was also married to their brother, Ptomely VI, with whom she had a daughter, Cleo III. They all co-jointly ruled Egypt.

Ptolemy VIII then married the daughter of his co-rulers/siblings, with whom he was twice over an uncle.

It's a big polygamous incestual mess.

 

[Sirrobert1]

Ptomely VIII got with his sister, Cleo II, who was also married to their brother, Ptomely VI, with whom she had a daughter, Cleo III. They all co-jointly ruled Egypt.

Ptolemy VIII then married the daughter of his co-rulers/siblings, with whom he was twice over an uncle.

It's a big polygamous incestual mess.

Egyptian dynasties were fun.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

Let's not make it up. There is no yuck factor in biological mechanism - actually it is completelly opposite. Yuck factor is only implemented by social factor and fear of having inbreeding and by forcing this fear on others. If we would make an experiment with siblings who were raised seperatelly and they would meet up, without knowing that they are sibblings(or even their parents would work just fine) - there would be a higher chance that they would fall in love than otherwise... There are plenty of examples on "yellow press" on RL situations anyway... So those sibblings would click, because they match some of genetical material, as similar people are looking for similar people, because there is stress factor, that is more important than exchanging of genes to DNA supply.

Keep in mind, that Iran is muslim country(and one of the most islamic country in the world) now and not zoroastrian, so even Encyclopedia would have muslim views - not zoroastrian. Muslim society is strange - it teaches to hate brother, then bundling up with brother to hate father and so on... and islam society produces inbreeding results like no others, because they marry each other cousins...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...px-Global_prevalence_of_consanguinity.svg.png

As for reading Encyclopedia Iranica... you have enough persian people around to ask, than believe in something that is written. I had a coworker from Iran who had been married by parents - so it is still a society, where has to be considered father factor, who decides whom you are marrying - that applies not only to girls, but to guys as well, especially whimps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopædia_Iranica

 

[Keizer Harm]

Has anyone yet compiled a complete list of brilliant CKII forum thread titles :O