Are goods created out of thin air?

[Naisho]

When you want to play a game with ww1 but can't simulate the naval blockade that Germany was under leading the turnip winter, and later desire for Lebensraum

You can always find meat from somewhere even during the siege of Leningrad. That doesn't mean it is pretty or that it is a desirable outcome.


The blockage of the Central powers was not a complete blockage but it certainly did affect them. It is theoretically possible to trade with Austria, who is trading with the Ottomans, who is trading with Persia, who is trading with the US by which the food arrives.
Heck, even in the natural gas blocking in Europe, certain "unknown" natural gas is moving to Europe through Greek shipping to France, Italy, and Spain.

Middlemen will find a way, and they will charge you for that finder's fee.

 

[FishieFan]

You can always find meat from somewhere even during the siege of Leningrad. That doesn't mean it is pretty or that it is a desirable outcome.


The blockage of the Central powers was not a complete blockage but it certainly did affect them. It is theoretically possible to trade with Austria, who is trading with the Ottomans, who is trading with Persia, who is trading with the US by which the food arrives.
Heck, even in the natural gas blocking in Europe, certain "unknown" natural gas is moving to Europe through Greek shipping to France, Italy, and Spain.

Middlemen will find a way, and they will charge you for that finder's fee.

It didnt just affect them, it drastically affected them and impacted the sustainability of war in Germany. The dutch were neutral and so could still ship food to Germany, however just because it can be transported, doesnt mean you can sustain pre war supplies

 

[PlayerZeroFour]

You can always find meat from somewhere even during the siege of Leningrad. That doesn't mean it is pretty or that it is a desirable outcome.


The blockage of the Central powers was not a complete blockage but it certainly did affect them. It is theoretically possible to trade with Austria, who is trading with the Ottomans, who is trading with Persia, who is trading with the US by which the food arrives.
Heck, even in the natural gas blocking in Europe, certain "unknown" natural gas is moving to Europe through Greek shipping to France, Italy, and Spain.

Middlemen will find a way, and they will charge you for that finder's fee.

What about in instances where a good can take months to produce, like a warship? Sure might be able to get a couple, but I’ve seen Spain maintain a large fleet of destroyers without any access to ironclads.
How do you find a fleet of warships on the black market?

 

[cdub8d]

What about in instances where a good can take months to produce, like a warship? Sure might be able to get a couple, but I’ve seen Spain maintain a large fleet of destroyers without any access to ironclads.
How do you find a fleet of warships on the black market?

Hmmmm. I mean the black market of sorts could be modeled.... One way they could have done it in Vicky 3 is have a pop type that works as like independenets... They could like produce something all on their own. Maybe call them like an Artisan or something? Just spitballing here.

 

[Naisho]

What about in instances where a good can take months to produce, like a warship? Sure might be able to get a couple, but I’ve seen Spain maintain a large fleet of destroyers without any access to ironclads.
How do you find a fleet of warships on the black market?

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Edit: Look the game is a literal economic theory simulation. That means that not everything plays out as we imagine it should. To you and I, an item exist if it exists in our pocket. In economic theory, an item exists if the graph says it ought to exist. It exists somewhere and we have no idea where it might come from.

 

[DestinyCalls]

Agreed, the system works. If your deficit become too big, you get up to iirc 50% penalty to production. Having a smaller deficit, in gameplay terms, means using the resource is cumbersome and expensive so it's hard to make profit from it.

I like it a lot, it's a lot more intuitive than 'you are lacking 10 iron, so random tool factories do nothing and close their doors'. Current system is far easier to work with - you can instantly tell the effects of producing factories.

people say they want a super ultra realistic system but if the game worked like they wanted they would hate it. I would hate if a single good missing would give me popups on all my factories. it simply would make the game the most tedious whackamole simulator simply put.

 

[cdub8d]

people say they want a super ultra realistic system but if the game worked like they wanted they would hate it. I would hate if a single good missing would give me popups on all my factories. it simply would make the game the most tedious whackamole simulator simply put.

The problem is we have Vicky 2 to compare Vicky 3 too. Nobody was asking for a reskin. People wanted improvement and instead we managed to get less.

 

[PlayerZeroFour]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Edit: Look the game is a literal economic theory simulation. That means that not everything plays out as we imagine it should. To you and I, an item exist if it exists in our pocket. In economic theory, an item exists if the graph says it ought to exist. It exists somewhere and we have no idea where it might come from.

Nothing. Actually, it's occurred to me that the way they treat fleets is bad. Maybe the shipyards could provide fleet construction capacity (similar to what they have for constructing/expanding buildings) and the naval bases could provide naval supply capacity? A navy going through 18 ironclads a week to support a fleet of not ironclads is a bit silly, no matter how you cut it.

 

[Allan Nonymous]

What about in instances where a good can take months to produce, like a warship? Sure might be able to get a couple, but I’ve seen Spain maintain a large fleet of destroyers without any access to ironclads.
How do you find a fleet of warships on the black market?

Just pull football war and requisition civilian ships or smth.

 

[Green Giant]

people say they want a super ultra realistic system but if the game worked like they wanted they would hate it. I would hate if a single good missing would give me popups on all my factories. it simply would make the game the most tedious whackamole simulator simply put.

They would hate it because the game would run very slowly and the AI would be terrible at managing it.

 

[GnoSIS]

No one is complaining about the opposite: the magic fairies that buy up all your production/excess sell orders, just because they give some money to the player.

Can you imagine the gameplay crash if factories just stopped because "there's no one to buy our crap today"?

Yes, those blackmarket fairies, carrying ironclads and automobiles into fairy land, giving us sweet golden pounds!

 

[PlayerZeroFour]

They would hate it because the game would run very slowly and the AI would be terrible at managing it.

*Laughs in capitalists trying to build countless telephone factories long before the world's first electric gear factory is built on laissez faire*

 

[bugglesley]

Have any of you moaning about how it's "game breaking" for shortage to be modeled by price.. actually played the game? Again, having played vic2 a lot and enjoyed it, its economic problems broke the lategame in many cases. "Spain has 3 ironclads even though they're supposed to have 0 :C I posted a screenshot for us to get mad at" isn't game breaking!

When you want to play a game with ww1 but can't simulate the naval blockade that Germany was under leading the turnip winter, and later desire for Lebensraum

It simulates both of those things, though. As has been said, over and over and over again, there are consequences for high prices. You can have a food shortage and it is devastating. There are reasons the devs have memed at least one per stream about consumption taxes on grain. I have won a war by convoy raiding in this game (I couldn't naval land on Brunei, set it to convoy raiding, tried again after 2 years of raiding and it was much easier because all of their armies had 90% penalty). Yes, even after all the raiding they still had some, so sure "ZOMG so unrealistic where was the artillery coming from!!!!" but at the same time.. their armies collapsed. Every single example where someone says "the goods come from nowhere so nothing matters" has.. just not played the game.

And that's the biggest kicker to me. All the whiners and "why didn't the devs make the decisions I would make"ers had something of a leg to stand on before the game came out. But you can actually install and play it now! You don't have to go off of a single screenshot! You can actually try these things! And yes, there will exist "goods" even without inputs... but sustained or major lack of goods has real and definite impacts, which conveniently the entire "it appears out of thin air!!!" crowd consistently refuses to acknowledge.

The economy works. It is satisfying. It is probably balanced to be a little too easy to manage right now, but the fundamental systems hold together and don't take a massive poop in their diaper consistently the way that V2's would, and that was after years of patching.

 

[FishieFan]

Have any of you moaning about how it's "game breaking" for shortage to be modeled by price.. actually played the game? Again, having played vic2 a lot and enjoyed it, its economic problems broke the lategame in many cases. "Spain has 3 ironclads even though they're supposed to have 0 :C I posted a screenshot for us to get mad at" isn't game breaking!

So all people that dislike the game are just whiners that never played it but if they did play it they do it solely for screenshots to complain about
But people that say vic2 had game breaking mechanics are completely sincere and honest
Got it

It simulates both of those things, though. As has been said, over and over and over again, there are consequences for high prices. You can have a food shortage and it is devastating. There are reasons the devs have memed at least one per stream about consumption taxes on grain. I have won a war by convoy raiding in this game (I couldn't naval land on Brunei, set it to convoy raiding, tried again after 2 years of raiding and it was much easier because all of their armies had 90% penalty). Yes, even after all the raiding they still had some, so sure "ZOMG so unrealistic where was the artillery coming from!!!!" but at the same time.. their armies collapsed. Every single example where someone says "the goods come from nowhere so nothing matters" has.. just not played the game.

Who were you at war with? Just brunei?

And that's the biggest kicker to me. All the whiners and "why didn't the devs make the decisions I would make"ers had something of a leg to stand on before the game came out. But you can actually install and play it now! You don't have to go off of a single screenshot! You can actually try these things! And yes, there will exist "goods" even without inputs... but sustained or major lack of goods has real and definite impacts, which conveniently the entire "it appears out of thin air!!!" crowd consistently refuses to acknowledge.

We could play it beforehand due to the leaked build, some are playing the released version and still find the design decisions poor

The economy works. It is satisfying. It is probably balanced to be a little too easy to manage right now, but the fundamental systems hold together and don't take a massive poop in their diaper consistently the way that V2's would, and that was after years of patching.

Vic3 has flaws but vic2 is stinky diaper poopoo game? Are you just countersignalling isorrow or?

 

[Naisho]

Nothing. Actually, it's occurred to me that the way they treat fleets is bad. Maybe the shipyards could provide fleet construction capacity (similar to what they have for constructing/expanding buildings) and the naval bases could provide naval supply capacity? A navy going through 18 ironclads a week to support a fleet of not ironclads is a bit silly, no matter how you cut it.

I agree, I would go a step further they ought to do something similar with the military. Ships and guns ought to exist as stockpiles of goods used by militaries. It is the one area that I wish was more HoI4-like. Ships need to be a national investment. After all, that investment is what bother the UK when Germany did it.

I do not agree with all the abstractions that they made. I think certain areas need real numbers because those areas tend to not just represent a fuzzy 'ideal' but the harshness of the experience. Like how they didn't abstract from the reality of slavery.