Are factories absurdly cheap to construct?

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Pyrobolimenos

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I've been thinking about the economics in the game and I can't help but feel that the rate of economic growth is completely unrealistic. It is not uncommon for a nation to double or triple its CIV count in a few years leading up to the war, via focuses or by manually building them. I get that CIVs are an abstraction of multiple things, currency, GDP, industrial capability, none of those things however grow at that pace in that short of time. Having a country's economy grow at 10% per year IRL is considered an economic boom and the economic growth in game completely dwarfs that.
MICs are a bit more realistic, since military output does explode as a nation mobilizes, however this usually comes at the expense of the civilian sector, as factories are converted to military use. Obviously in game nobody does this, as outright building MICs is way too cheap compared to converting CIVs. It makes no sense that converting a factory from say, making civilian to military trucks should cost over half of building it from the ground up.
Clearly then, increasing factory build costs will improve the realism and thus the quality of the game. Perhaps also tweaking some numbers like starting factory count, or MIC output in order to maintain the balance of the game will also be required. However, I also get the feeling that this may not necessarily make the game more fun. To a large extent it reduces the impact a player's decisions can have on the economy and eliminates the need to optimize a strategy to get "x factories by 1939". There are players in the community, myself among them, who want HOI to be a realistic WW2 simulator, but also players who want it to be more of a game, with cheese strategies and formable nations. Clearly Paradox has taken a middle ground while developing the game, however I am curious to see how the community would respond to this change.
 
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pro.gamer.69

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yeah, most historical would be to make it so you could only grow civ counts by ~10% between game start and '39, slightly increase how long it takes to make mils from scratch, and massively decrease how long it takes to convert civs to mils and vice versa. if you've never checked out the ULTRA mod i'd recommend it, it basically does just that, and also give historical factory counts (so germany has like 600 civs and italy like 80). not really my cup of tea though, i massively prefer the game as a ww2-themed grand strategy than an actual ww2 sim
 
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batata1

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Another option for more realistic eco is World Ablaze, which has the concept of economic fatigue. When your eco is mobilised, it loses efficiency, and the more mobilised you are, the faster efficiency declines.

It also models fuel much more realistically, i.e. it's a huge constraint for Germany.

But, all these aspects of realism reduce the player's options and usually increase the skill level needed to win, so they can't be used in vanilla. Some people struggle to win as Ger in vanilla, they'd get annihilated in WA.
 
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Zauberelefant

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I think given that the game is, ultimately, only concerned with military output and civs being a means to differentiate a mobilization in depth Vs a quick buildup, and that Military output grew way faster between 1936 and 1945 than a normal economy would have (the war effort turned the USSR into a superpower, brought the US from a struggling economy to its biggest boom, and saw Germany briefly challenging 3 major powers), while the game still struggles to reach historical output of nations involved (we think), I can live with the wonky magical economy of hoi4.
 
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Tisifoni12

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Yes the industrial growth is bonkers. I've taken to using the 'Historical Industry' mod. This limits scope for industrial growth, but as other constructions remain 'cheap' in terms of resources and time to build one either ends up running out of stuff to build or maxing out on airfields, railways, etc.

There are differences between the types of economy. All in HOI4 are treated it seems as centrally planned command economies.

The Soviets have a centrally planned command economy, deciding how much civilian industry to build.
The Brits and the US have economies where private enterprise and investment produce civilian industry. Govt. policies can influence this, but doesn't control.
The Germans have an autocratic 'mafia' economy where private enterprise and investment are 'leant on' to conform to what Govt. wants done.
 
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Putuna

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Eh I don't really feel that way civs allow a larger mil growth. Which mill growth was dramatically increased throughout the war. I think that it is scaled quite well currently.

I don't look at civs as GDP or money and am personally quite glad Paradox didn't include money or GDP. Both aren't useful like at all when talking about total war scenarios. the Germans had a better GDP and access to far more money then the Soviet Union until like the very end of 1945 for example. Money is a little more useful in trading for resources but gets less important the longer the war goes on. As Hoi 4 players all know why trade civs for resources that I can take.

Civs in my mind are more the industrial/logistics capacity that support your explicit military factories. Everything from steel mills to power tool manufacturing basically. Which I think the game models well as you make more mills you will need more secondary industry to support that.
 
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kardwill

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Civs in my mind are more the industrial/logistics capacity that support your explicit military factories.
Yeah, that's my read also. CIV IC don't cover the entire civilian sector, but the parts that are relevant to waging the war and can be controlled by (or works for) the government : Public construction works, state-owned vehicle factories, that sort of things. Especially since the part of "CIV" that goes into the civilian economy and services is really small (10-35%).
So you don't x2 or x3 your country's total industrial capability, but you x2 or x3 the industrial capability that you can directly control to expand your warfighting ability, through new factories, but also nationalizations, civilian sector contracts, international aid, etc...

And it's nice from a gameplay POV, since it gives more control to the player over the way they develop their country. The indusstrial gameplay wouldn't be very interesting/exciting if, at best you could scrounge a +15% over an entire game.
 
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Forster

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It would be interesting to see allied countries needing to use power points to encourage the economy to build civ and mil factories. That might limit the unit spam that occurs.
 
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