Are factions a joke?

[Seelensturm]

So a dangerous faction has formed with more than enough power to enforce an ultimatum if declined. Do you need to be scared?

I don't even want to talk about the whole 'member become vassals of leader vastly decreasing actual levy number' issue. Instead I want to point out some requirements for the faction to send their ultimatium in the first place even at infinite power. Let's have a look at the code of e.g. the most common Increase Council Power Faction:

allow = {        
            NOT = {
                any_realm_title = {
                    is_occupied = yes

So a hard requirement both for the player and the AI is that no realm title is occupied. This not only qualifies for wars against outsiders or titles directly held by the liege or the faction leader. As far as I know (correct me if I am wrong) no single holding in the whole realm has to be occupied by whomever. The larger the empire the more unlikely this will become because eventually there will always be some random (sub-)vassal infighting.

Let's continue with the AI modifiers:

modifier = {
                factor = 0
                liege = {
                    any_war = {
                        OR = {
                            AND = {
                                defender = { character = PREV }
                                NOT = { using_cb = depose_liege }
                                NOT = { using_cb = overthrow_ruler }
                                NOT = { using_cb = overthrow_ruler_no_calls }
                            }
                            AND = {
                                attacker = { character = PREV }
                                OR = {
                                    using_cb = invasion
                                    using_cb = religious
                                    using_cb = tribal_invasion
                                    using_cb = muslim_invasion
                                    using_cb = viking_invasion
                                    using_cb = claim_all
                                    using_cb = claim
                                    using_cb = other_claim
                                }
                            }
                        }
                    }
                }

A modifier of zero means the AI will never send the ultimatum if the check is true. So the liege is safe from AI factions if he is either:
- a defender in any war (except overthrow/depose ruler faction wars)
- an attacker in most types of war including the most common Holy wars and Claim wars.

So afraid of a faction? Nah you don't have to be, your plotting vassals are actually gentlemen and will only consider bother you if the realm is in perfect peace and you can focus to put down their rebellion. If this is still to troublesome, just make sure you there is some random war going on or a random raider or vassals is occupying anything - congratulation you made a core part of the game irrelevant.

Realising this actually makes me want to quit the game right here. Please tell me I am reading the code wrong.

 

[Ozamu]

Likewise, I really hope I'm interpreting the code wrong. Are the devs really that afraid of making the game more difficult that they actually place these kinds of AI limitations to protect the player?

I'm lost for words...

 

[Captain Frakas]

You forgot the joke's punchline.

 

[chandl34]

Factions (and host armies) are so ineffectual when they actually do attack, I wonder if they could accomplish anything even without these advantages. The AI is often hesitant to siege with larger troop numbers or will just get stuck patrolling between two counties until the warscore ticks to whitepeace.

Was there ever a point in CK2's patch history, where factions worked more like CK1's, where the groups that wanted independence would just take independence, and it was up to the player to attack or ignore them?

 

[WSnova]

Wow, seriously someone who knows the code better elaborate.

 

[DukeDayve]

Was there ever a point in CK2's patch history, where factions worked more like CK1's, where the groups that wanted independence would just take independence, and it was up to the player to attack or ignore them?

No, but there was a time when factions were very dangerous. It was before Rajas of India. For reasons I still can't comprehend Paradox decided to literally make them powerless (for proof, see how factions have been powerless and incapable of achieving anything since the changes in Rajas).

 

[Asiak]

I think your blowing it out of proportion.

You specifically state that this is for the Increase Council Power faction and you do not imply that such requirements exist for other factions.

Now if this applies to all factions I would agree with you, that perhaps the any realm title being occupied is a bit much, and a bit to wide and vague a requirement. Though I would also remind you that raids do not count as occupation they burn things down instead.

But I don't think it does apply to all factions. And even if it does the notion that vassals would be hesitant to launch an ultimatum during a time of war is not unrealistic, especially one that selfishly increases council power.

And I fail to see how it could be exploited unless your suggesting a perpetual state of war, that the costs of upkeep and opinion to raised levies is worth it just to keep factions down.

And are we really going to argue that the AI is scared to follow through on factions. Yes there was a time in the past where they were much more dangerous and they have since been cut down a bit. But the notion that the AI post conclave is afraid to launch an ultimatum is just false. Even in the world of forced call to arms. There are still those moments of peace where they will push for things.

 

[Thrake]

So afraid of a faction? Nah you don't have to be, your plotting vassals are actually gentlemen and will only consider bother you if the realm is in perfect peace and you can focus to put down their rebellion.

I don't think it's that stupid. It is the liege power that ensures the safety of every vassal property. If you just ignore the Abbasid holy war and decide to go on and press your faction claim, then it might mean that the ERE, your liege, won't ever be able to stop the Abbasids, just because... you wanted to lower crown authority, and it shifted the balance of power. Anyway, vassals levies are not depleted anymore when the liege raise levies it seems, so when the ERE defends, he does not depletes vassal levies (besides occupied counties), so a faction can still strike at full force the very first day of peace with Abbasids.

I think it is also important because AI neighbours are now vultures and having to pull back every neighbour each time you're involved in a tough war, if you had to add factions on top it would probably lead to a spiral of constent wars with neighbours and faction wars.

The main factor that should be reworked I think to make factions more significant is to actually tweak the amount of levies received per member; maybe not 100% because it would really be brutal, but something as a middle ground, always make the most powerful member (in terms of own levies) faction leader (he will raise 100% of his levies) and make it so that the AI knows in advance how much it will have instead of finding itself with like only 75% of what it was expected.

Or, increase the AI likelyhood to join factions and keep it all as it is right now. I still remember early versions where the liege was sometimes alone (even in big realms like ERE); now it never happens anymore.

 

[Kollatius]

No, but there was a time when factions were very dangerous. It was before Rajas of India. For reasons I still can't comprehend Paradox decided to literally make them powerless (for proof, see how factions have been powerless and incapable of achieving anything since the changes in Rajas).

I wouldn't say the constant elective spam is factions being powerless... (even after the patch, it's not unusual for me to see two rebeellions for elective monarchy at any given time just in western europe!)

 

[DorlasAnther]

There is another problem: Faction leader can´t call his allies to war.
Imagine situation, where faction lead by some Otto fires agains emperor of HRE. Emperor has 20k troops and Otto has 25k, which puts him to an advantage. But, emperor has been clever and made alliance with Sicily and Hungary, who together have 25k troops. This would be bad for Otto, but he, as really powerful duke, was able to secure alliance with France, which has 30k troops, giving rebels and their allies 10k more troops than emperor and his allies.
Oh, wait, no it doesn´t, he can´t call France to war, because it is faction war. So, while emperor can say to his allies: "Hey, so, I have this civil war, come and help me.", but Otto can´t. Because reasons. This is IMO the biggest reason why factions tend to fail. You can have rebels twice as strong, but if you have good alliances, you can defeat them even after they destroyed your armies.
And funny thing: If you declare war on your liege without starting faction first (for example war for independence), you can call your allies. As someone who loves to start as duke under king and then, after becoming powerful, gaining independence and making custom kingdom (I play HIP, so there are more cultures and land, which allows you to get 3 duchies/35 holdings without getting more than half of your original kingdom), I realized that it is better to declare war for independence rather than making faction. Yes, having support of 2 other dukes and their 6k troops is nice, but two 20k HRE stacks smashing enemy armies and assaulting their holdings is even better.

 

[RforRush]

So de jure wars don't count?

 

[Seelensturm]

Though I would also remind you that raids do not count as occupation they burn things down instead.

True, my mistake. It only removes a minor source of occupation though.

And I fail to see how it could be exploited unless your suggesting a perpetual state of war, that the costs of upkeep and opinion to raised levies is worth it just to keep factions down.

I am usually spend far more time in wars than in peace. In most wars personal levies + retinues + maybe mercenaries are enough to deal with most enemies, so I just chain wars. Wars are slower when not using your full power, but in the mean time you are safe from factions - not a bad deal. And even if you stack up high opinion maluses from raised liege levies - as long they can't fire the faction it is of low importance. Just wait for peace until they calmed down.
Being at war also doesn't require you to have raised (liege) levies at all. If a faction becomes dangerous, you can just prolong your war (or declare a new one on count nobody) and in the meantime you can deal with the faction without risk. So I see a lot of ways to exploit.

You specifically state that this is for the Increase Council Power faction and you do not imply that such requirements exist for other factions.

The 'no realm title occupied' restriction applies to all factions. I wrote this post out of frustration because in my current game I can't press my claim on my liege's title because there is always some occupied title in his large realm even when he is at peace because of vassal infighting. I worked for this claim multiple generations and now I can't use it because of such an artificial restriction.
On the flip side I also never experienced a faction actually making an ultimatium against me in 300 years so I got curious and looked up the files.

The zero AI modifiers for wars are for nearly all factions the same, except for the Independence faction where you are only safe when you attack or defend against infidels,

Spoiler

modifier = {
                factor = 0
                liege = {
                    religion = ROOT
                    any_war = {
                        attacker = { character = PREV }
                        NOT = { defender = { religion_group = ROOT } }
                    }
                }
            }
          
            modifier = {
                factor = 0
                liege = {
                    religion = ROOT                  
                    any_war = {
                        OR = {
                            AND = {
                                defender = { character = PREV }
                                OR = {
                                    using_cb = religious
                                    using_cb = muslim_invasion
                                    using_cb = viking_invasion
                                    using_cb = crusade
                                }
                            }
                            AND = {
                                attacker = { character = PREV }          
                                using_cb = viking_invasion
                            }
                        }
                    }
                }
            }

and the claimant factions, where things are more complicated, but are in most cases the same if I understand it correctly:

Spoiler

            modifier = {
                factor = 0
                supported_claimant = {
                    any_war = {
                        OR = {
                            AND = {
                                any_attacker = { character = PREV }
                                any_attacker = { 
                                    ROOT = {
                                        liege = {
                                            character = PREVPREV
                                        } 
                                    }
                                }
                            }
                            AND = {
                                any_defender = { character = PREV }
                                any_defender = { 
                                    ROOT = {
                                        liege = {
                                            character = PREVPREV
                                        } 
                                    }
                                }
                            }
                        }
                    }
                }
            }
           
            modifier = {
                factor = 0
                liege = {
                    any_war = {
                        OR = {
                            AND = {
                                defender = { character = PREV }
                                NOT = { using_cb = depose_liege }
                                NOT = { using_cb = overthrow_ruler }
                                NOT = { using_cb = overthrow_ruler_no_calls }
                                thirdparty_title_scope = {
                                    ROOT = {
                                        supported_claimant_title = {
                                            title = PREVPREV
                                        }
                                    }
                                    OR = {
                                        is_conquered = no
                                        conquest_culture = ROOT
                                    }
                                }
                                attacker = {
                                    OR = {
                                        in_revolt = no
                                        NOT = {
                                            liege_before_war = {
                                                character = PREVPREVPREV
                                            }
                                        }
                                    }
                                }
                            }
                            AND = {
                                attacker = {
                                    character = PREV
                                    ROOT = {
                                        supported_claimant = {
                                            religion = PREVPREV
                                            culture = PREVPREV
                                        }
                                    }
                                }
                                OR = {
                                    using_cb = religious
                                    using_cb = crusade
                                    using_cb = muslim_invasion
                                    using_cb = viking_invasion
                                    using_cb = invasion
                                    using_cb = tribal_invasion
                                    using_cb = claim_all
                                    using_cb = claim
                                }
                            }
                        }
                    }
                }
            }
        }
    }

 

[durbal]

Sigh.

 

[JonathanOfArc]

Speaking against the code are we? Smells like heretics in here.

 

[Hecaton]

Likewise, I really hope I'm interpreting the code wrong. Are the devs really that afraid of making the game more difficult that they actually place these kinds of AI limitations to protect the player?

I'm lost for words...

It's weird because they'll try to add artificial hardness in some area (Threat/Infamy), and then act all shy about how it works in other areas (Pre-RoI style rebellions, which were much more difficult to deal with).

The consistent thread, I suppose, is that they just don't know what they're doing.

 

[yourworstnightm]

There's loads of wonky things with factions. Basically I think they need serious rework, all rebalance have either led to them being just EUIV style revolt countdowns you can't do shit to counteract (unlike in EU IV), because vassals don't care if you're their best friend or not, or it's the opposite, they never do anything. They have never felt like something you can work with/ against (yes, I know some mods have done clever things with factions, like CK2+, but I'm talking about vanilla).

 

[Hector of Troy]

It's weird because they'll try to add artificial hardness in some area (Threat/Infamy), and then act all shy about how it works in other areas (Pre-RoI style rebellions, which were much more difficult to deal with).

The consistent thread, I suppose, is that they just don't know what they're doing.

Truth be told, this is Dooomdark's responsibility entirely. As he stated on his latest interview, it's been made clear he was not going to add internal mechanics to large realms, at the risk of frustrating players who can't handle losing their king/emperor titles.

It must therefore be very hard for the new dev team to be given the task to combat blobbing, and at the same time being told to not implement mechanics that will tackle the problem appropriately, through dangerous factions and internal instability.

 

[Ilyasviel]

Truth be told, this is Dooomdark's responsibility entirely. As he stated on his latest interview, it's been made clear he was not going to add internal mechanics to large realms, at the risk of frustrating players who can't handle losing their king/emperor titles.

It must therefore be very hard for the new dev team to be given the task to combat blobbing, and at the same time being told to not implement mechanics that will tackle the problem appropriately, through dangerous factions and internal instability.

Unfortunately, it's been confirmed that Doomdark is still the game director for ck2, so the chances of the game getting good again until development is stopped are very slim.

 

[bcsmall]

It must therefore be very hard for the new dev team to be given the task to combat blobbing, and at the same time being told to not implement mechanics that will tackle the problem appropriately, through dangerous factions and internal instability.

Why do patches have to be "one size fits all?" The game has difficulty levels and those levels can be included in the code to change the modifiers impacting events (ex: marriage acceptance chances). Why is it not possible, for example, to allow more dangerous - and frequent - factions for players playing at a higher difficulty than those playing at a lower one?

After years of playing this game, most of my game quits are do to boredom with my current situation, rather than a "rage quit." In fact, I quite like it when things don't go my way because then I get to spend years scheming my way back to power. A steady ladder to more power is, well, dull once I have more than one kingdom title.

 

[Calad]

This one reason why I quited ck2. It is a wonderfull game but paradox wont simply care of it. After certain point when you know all mechanics game simply becomes very easy if not auto-win always.