Are Concentrated Armored Units Historically Accurate?

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Hippob4

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So, for the longest time I thought armored units in real life and HOI4 best worked when you had them concentrated rather than spread out along a wide front.

Historically we saw the Germans steamrolling over the French and British in 1940 with their massed Panzer divisions across Belgium while the Allies spread their tanks largely across the frontlines. We saw the Battle of Kursk where a huge amount of tanks were concentrated and while the Germans didn't win, they inflicted colossal casualties on the Soviets and their tanks (yes, Soviet tanks and crews were more replaceable than Germans).

And in HoI4 it feels like Tanks divisions 1.) Benefit from having a Tank General to give them buffs and 2.) It's easier to have specialized armies, an Infantry only army, a Tank only army, etc.

I think years ago i tried to place armored divisions in armies with Infantry divisions, but it just seemed to be a pain to juggle (battle plans and frontlines) and again, the tanks don't benefit from having an Infantry Commander in charge.

---

But am I using tanks wrong in HoI4? Are they historically supposed to be attached to armies instead of specialized tank groups? Did the Germans evolve away from the mass Panzer division groups and spread them out more? And is it actually better in HoI4 to have a mixed-army than specialized one?
 
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Jays298

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The early success of the Germans was IMHO a happy accident of tanks outrunning their infantry and making unexpected advances. Later on, on the eastern front, massed tanks vs tanks was a common phenomenon.

But the real issue is later on the development of anti tank weapons, growing air support and air superiority, and the return of tanks as a support resource outside of occasional offensives due to lack of tanks.

In game terms separate tank armies work best with a separate set of armies to hold the line and occasionally attack. You can drive encirclements like this. Especially in the Europe.

In Africa and other places I find it better to have a combined army because I need to watch my supply and basically have one or two tank divisions followed by as much infantry as the land will support.

Is it realistic to have them in a separate command structure? Not really but it makes for easier gameplay.

Plus as a strategic asset, you have to know where they are. I don't like them lost in unknown locations on unknown terrain. Concentrated is safer and riskier at the same time. But assuming you are good at micromanaging what they do and defending them in the air, it's ok.

I've played tank lite (like focusing on 7/2 infantry artillery and SF or GBP doctrines) but have recently become fond of mobile warfare for the speed and manpower. Both play styles are viable.

The new patch / DLC may change things up as far as the tank / antitank / armor thing.
 
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George Parr

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The early success of the Germans was IMHO a happy accident of tanks outrunning their infantry and making unexpected advances. Later on, on the eastern front, massed tanks vs tanks was a common phenomenon.

But the real issue is later on the development of anti tank weapons, growing air support and air superiority, and the return of tanks as a support resource outside of occasional offensives due to lack of tanks.

In game terms separate tank armies work best with a separate set of armies to hold the line and occasionally attack. You can drive encirclements like this. Especially in the Europe.

In Africa and other places I find it better to have a combined army because I need to watch my supply and basically have one or two tank divisions followed by as much infantry as the land will support.

Is it realistic to have them in a separate command structure? Not really but it makes for easier gameplay.

Plus as a strategic asset, you have to know where they are. I don't like them lost in unknown locations on unknown terrain. Concentrated is safer and riskier at the same time. But assuming you are good at micromanaging what they do and defending them in the air, it's ok.

I've played tank lite (like focusing on 7/2 infantry artillery and SF or GBP doctrines) but have recently become fond of mobile warfare for the speed and manpower. Both play styles are viable.

The new patch / DLC may change things up as far as the tank / antitank / armor thing.
Why wouldn't it be realistic to have tanks in seperate armies?
Both Germany and the Soviet Union had Tank Armies. Sometimes Panzer Corps were put under the command of a regular army, but for most operations they were under a specific tank-command, be it an actual tank army or a tank group that was a tank army in all but name.

Now, those formations obviously included motorized units as well, and occasionally even regular infantry, so they weren't purely tank formations, but it was still a unified command for tanks, just with additional support.
 
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kimidf

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The early success of the Germans was IMHO a happy accident of tanks outrunning their infantry and making unexpected advances. Later on, on the eastern front, massed tanks vs tanks was a common phenomenon.

But the real issue is later on the development of anti tank weapons, growing air support and air superiority, and the return of tanks as a support resource outside of occasional offensives due to lack of tanks.

In game terms separate tank armies work best with a separate set of armies to hold the line and occasionally attack. You can drive encirclements like this. Especially in the Europe.

In Africa and other places I find it better to have a combined army because I need to watch my supply and basically have one or two tank divisions followed by as much infantry as the land will support.

Is it realistic to have them in a separate command structure? Not really but it makes for easier gameplay.

Plus as a strategic asset, you have to know where they are. I don't like them lost in unknown locations on unknown terrain. Concentrated is safer and riskier at the same time. But assuming you are good at micromanaging what they do and defending them in the air, it's ok.

I've played tank lite (like focusing on 7/2 infantry artillery and SF or GBP doctrines) but have recently become fond of mobile warfare for the speed and manpower. Both play styles are viable.

The new patch / DLC may change things up as far as the tank / antitank / armor thing.
The great success of the Germans in the first stage with respect to their adversaries was due not only to the tanks but was the ability to concentrate small forces combined weapons of mobile chalice with a total air support to break the front and find what Germans called Schuwërpunt or breaking point while the rest of the army held the front


Another German advantage over the Allies was the flexibility and coordination of all its elements and the ability of all its ranks to act autonomously and its excellent training provided thanks to the Reichswer, which meant that only the best and the most capable students had any range type and this was the case for over a decade from the early 20's to the mid-30's
 
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mursolini

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So, for the longest time I thought armored units in real life and HOI4 best worked when you had them concentrated rather than spread out along a wide front.

Historically we saw the Germans steamrolling over the French and British in 1940 with their massed Panzer divisions across Belgium while the Allies spread their tanks largely across the frontlines. We saw the Battle of Kursk where a huge amount of tanks were concentrated and while the Germans didn't win, they inflicted colossal casualties on the Soviets and their tanks (yes, Soviet tanks and crews were more replaceable than Germans).

And in HoI4 it feels like Tanks divisions 1.) Benefit from having a Tank General to give them buffs and 2.) It's easier to have specialized armies, an Infantry only army, a Tank only army, etc.

I think years ago i tried to place armored divisions in armies with Infantry divisions, but it just seemed to be a pain to juggle (battle plans and frontlines) and again, the tanks don't benefit from having an Infantry Commander in charge.

---

But am I using tanks wrong in HoI4? Are they historically supposed to be attached to armies instead of specialized tank groups? Did the Germans evolve away from the mass Panzer division groups and spread them out more? And is it actually better in HoI4 to have a mixed-army than specialized one?
French also had tank divisions.
Germans simply didn't have numbers to both spread armor and have dedicated divisions. Theoretically, each infantry division was supposed to have at least some StuGs, but Germans never managed to produce enough.

Historically tanks had separate command structure at corps level, which is absent in HOI4.
The early success of the Germans was IMHO a happy accident of tanks outrunning their infantry and making unexpected advances. Later on, on the eastern front, massed tanks vs tanks was a common phenomenon.
German success was due to many factors, but luck was the least of it.
Lessons of Great war, on how to breakthrough defenses not forgotten, army well organized and better trained after Poland, tanks paired with fast infantry, air superiority.
But the real issue is later on the development of anti tank weapons, growing air support and air superiority, and the return of tanks as a support resource outside of occasional offensives due to lack of tanks.
The issue was early war tanks lacked firepower and range. Hence German combined arms strategy of supressing AT defense and manouvering around worked so well.
In game terms separate tank armies work best with a separate set of armies to hold the line and occasionally attack. You can drive encirclements like this. Especially in the Europe.

In Africa and other places I find it better to have a combined army because I need to watch my supply and basically have one or two tank divisions followed by as much infantry as the land will support.

Is it realistic to have them in a separate command structure? Not really but it makes for easier gameplay.
In theory, that is where corps level was supposed to help, where small 3-5 division groups would be.
 
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HenricusRex

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I choose to see it as this, theoretically all countries would like to have 100% armoured divisions, no mather if it is airborne tanks, mountain tanks, amphibious tanks.

Things is, it expensive and requires a high amount of supply. So you have to limit your amount of tanks an decide how to use them, spread them out or concentrate them.

The Germans concetrated their tanks in panzerdivisions, which in 1939 had one panzerregiment and 2 motorised infantry regiments. This was smart as tanks needed supporting infantry, infantry cover etc. And also they needed maintanance and supply. The Soviets had alot more tanks in their 1941 tank divisions and that caused problems which supply and maintanance.

The americans in 1943-1945 had at least one tank battalion in each infantry division. Then they had armoured divisions.

So ok, armoured divisions do 2 things, breaks through and then exploits and crushes anything that tries to hinder them.

Infantry divisions generally hold the line. However if a breakthrough is achieved the line will extend fast and then motorised divisions will have be used to quickly reach the new lines so the armoured division will not be cutoff. All US and UK infantry divisions except for, special units, were motorised. The Germans did not have ability to motorise all their infatry units. 100% motorised units were rare, and the motorised regiments of the panzerdivisions were prioritsed.

I believe that the panzerdivisions were spread out during the Poland campaign. However during fall Gelb, the invasion of France through Benelux, Panzer corps were used, which contained 3-4 panzer divisions. As the German infantry was so non-motorised, these corps moved far ahead of the rest of army. A lone panzer division would not have that ability to fully exploit a breakthrough(to they could create them) would have a less "spare" tanks as losses were taken, and would have a harder time defending itself from being cut off.

A panzer division in a corps together with motorised divisions would have fared better, but would not have had spare tanks. A panzer divsion in a corps together with non-motorised infantry divisions would have been to slow.

Now as I said there where few motorised units besides the motorised regiments in the panzerdivisions, so the best choice would obviously be to use a panzer corps full of panzerdivisions. They had both speed and "spare" tanks.

As said the US Infantry divisions had tank battalions. The German infantry divisions was supposed to have a stug battery each but too few stugs were made.

This and other things meant that the German infantry divisions in general had less offensive power(and it would get worse as the war progressed).

So if we take all the things in account:

1. The infantry of the panzerdivisions were often the only motorised infantry units = the panzer divisions were the only "fast divisions"
2. As the war progressed the panzer division more and more become the only divisions with offensive capabilities

+ 3. bonus, Hitler insisted on raising no units instead of reinforcing old ones, meaning that the division were much smaller in reality than on paper especially concerning tanks.

We can see that it was pretty obvious for the germans to concentrate the panzerdivisions if they wanted to achieve a breakthrough(offensive power) and exploit it(speed), and also that the "panzer armies" used in later war was not as large as one might think. They simply contained the correct amount of divisions, but not the expected amount of men and tanks.

The main unrealistic thing I see in the game is that the division are reinforced to fast. During Fall Gelb some panzerdivision were down to 30-50% of its tank strength. That's what makes "spare" tanks so important.
 
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Jamor

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Historically we saw the Germans steamrolling over the French and British in 1940 with their massed Panzer divisions across Belgium while the Allies spread their tanks largely across the frontlines.

A generalization. The French had numerous motorized/armoured/hybrid cavalry units such as the three Division Légère Mécanique, the five Division de Cavalerie Légère, and the three Division Cuirassée.

This number compares somewhat favourably to the ten Panzer Divisions which the Germans were able to field in 1940. Also, the counterattack at Arras by British 1st Army Tank Brigade inflicted a sharp local reverse on 5th, 7th Panzer and SS-TK. The issue was not that the Germans were the only ones to field large armoured/motorized formations: it was that they had more experience and training in the techniques of a modern all-arms battle, and were not so handicapped by inter-branch rivalry as the more conservative Allies at the time, hampered as they were by the confirmation of old methods that victory in WWI had given them. Similarly, the bulk of Allied mobile formations were trapped in an impossible strategic dilemma: expecting a repeat of 1914, they rushed north towards the line of the River Dyle, only to be wrong-footed with their backs to the sea by the main attack coming in with complete strategic surprise behind them through the Ardennes. No one can fight effectively without supplies and secure rear communications. This is why you didn't see really large tank vs tank battles too much in the 1940 campaign (probably greatly to the German's benefit, since their fewer and lighter tanks might well have come off the worse in such an exchange): the Allied armoured units were rushed in to the wrong position to await an illusory main thrust, and then got swept up in the general collapse without much chance to show what they might have done.

and find what Germans called Schuwërpunt or breaking point while the rest of the army held the front

You mean "Schwerpunkt", which literally translates as "heavy point" but might be better understood as "the point of maximum effort". It referred not to the technique of assault, breakthrough, and exploitation itself, but rather the command philosophy that it is better to suddenly strike a weak spot with concentrated fighting power on a narrow front, than to grind up your manpower and momentum pushing weakly along the whole line. Should also state that although the vast preponderance of the supporting fires, Corps and Army artillery, close air support, etc would go in to the Schwerpunkt attack, units in the line to the left and right of this would generally not be idle: they would put in diversionary attacks, just strong enough to keep the enemy from shifting forces away from them to fight against the Schwerpunkt attack. This depended on infantry with a high degree of offensive drive and initiative, which the Germans certainly had in abundance in the early war years.

The Germans concetrated their tanks in panzerdivisions, which in 1939 had one panzerregiment and 2 motorised infantry regiments.

Actually you've got it in reverse :) The 1939-1940 Panzer Division organization had two Panzer Regiments, and a Schützen-Brigade composed of a regiment of motorized infantry and a battalion of motorcycle riflemen. This alongside an artillery regiment, and the normal assortment of supply, signals, medical, engineer, recce, antitank battalions. The ratio was reversed with the 1941 reorganization, to one Panzer Rgt and two Panzergrenadier, and stayed mostly unchanged for the rest of the war. More organic infantry made the tanks more self sufficient in operations, and also reflected the inability of German industry to provide enough vehicles to fill out the growing number of divisions of the rapidly expanding Panzerwaffe.

The americans in 1943-1945 had at least one tank battalion in each infantry division. Then they had armoured divisions.

Should specify that these tank battalions were not organic to the infantry division structure, but became a de facto permanent attachment to most divisions assigned to the Med and NWE theatres, similar to how the Chemical Mortar Battalions were doled out. America could afford this because, well, America.

All US and UK infantry divisions except for, special units, were motorised.

US infantry divisions were not in fact formally motorized, ie, having their own trucks as part of their permanent organization. What they did have was access to the absolutely immense fleet of general service vehicles that accompanied the US Army everywhere it went, and split their time between supply and troop movement tasks as ordered by higher command. In cases where speed was necessary, entire divisions could rapidly be put on wheels in this way, but it should be understood this was temporary, and most infantry GIs did an amount of marching that would not have shamed their ancestors in the 1860s.

Also, only the BEF in 1940 was fully motorized, as it represented the best of Britain's small, professional prewar army. That ambitious target rapidly fell apart after the collapse in France, and from that point only the infantry brigades in armoured divisions, and the motor battalions in armoured brigades, had full motorization. Everyone else marched.


This and other things meant that the German infantry divisions in general had less offensive power(and it would get worse as the war progressed).

So if we take all the things in account:

1. The infantry of the panzerdivisions were often the only motorised infantry units = the panzer divisions were the only "fast divisions"
2. As the war progressed the panzer division more and more become the only divisions with offensive capabilities

There is a widespread belief that only tanks had offensive power. However, considerable numbers of highly successful attacks were carried out by infantry with no tank support at all. The key difference infantry of the 1940s had compared to their fathers in WWI was that the infantry heavy weapons, the machine guns, mortars, and other equipment that provides the bulk of their fighting power, were now portable. All that stuff existed in 1918, but was much less mobile and therefore there was a huge firepower gap between defenders, secure in their entrenchments with their full arsenal, vs attackers who had to struggle out in to no man's land with rifles, bayonets, grenades, and not too much else. The first inklings of really portable crew-served weapons only started to come out at the end of that war.

The key difference in infantry vs armoured offensive potential is not so much smashing power, which both could have if led and supported correctly, but operational ability to exploit that breakthrough. Infantry could and did make a hole in the line, but was too slow to turn local tactical victory in to a real strategic success, by striking deep in to the enemy rear to cut supply and lines of retreat, etc.

Well that's a lot of Jamor nerding out. To answer the OP's original question, yes, multi-division all armoured/motorized formations are historically accurate. Germans and Soviets did them all the time.

(Edited caveat: of course, because nothing about WWII is ever simple, some notionally "Armoured" armies would, due to the natural transfer of units and and out, gradually lose their armoured character. Usually they would retain the name, probably for purposes of morale. Look at poor, forlorn 2nd Panzer Army in 1942, stripped of all but two of its Panzer Divisions to support offensives elsewhere: http://niehorster.org/011_germany/42-oob/42-06-28_blau/mitte/army_pz2.html )
 
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From what i read and watch around on Youtube, it seems that process of finding best armor\inf\mot\mech ratios was slow for Germans and they perfected it by the time of Barbarossa creating the most effective Armor Division composition. No other country had or could have any commensurable experience in that filed. This is why first months of Barbarossa were so successful for Germans and this is why Soviet armor groups wasn't able to hold (among with many other things). About actual ratio, Germans actually decreased amount of tanks in armored Divisions by the Invasion of USSR from 2 battalions to 1, increasing amount of mech\mot inf in it. They deemed larger amount of armor too hard to properly command. Something that not possible to emulate in HoI4.
 

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Actually you've got it in reverse :) The 1939-1940 Panzer Division organization had two Panzer Regiments, and a Schützen-Brigade composed of a regiment of motorized infantry and a battalion of motorcycle riflemen. This alongside an artillery regiment, and the normal assortment of supply, signals, medical, engineer, recce, antitank battalions. The ratio was reversed with the 1941 reorganization, to one Panzer Rgt and two Panzergrenadier, and stayed mostly unchanged for the rest of the war. More organic infantry made the tanks more self sufficient in operations, and also reflected the inability of German industry to provide enough vehicles to fill out the growing number of divisions of the rapidly expanding Panzerwaffe.
From what I am reading right now the change actually started right after the invasion of Poland, was ongoing during 1940 and 100% completed in 1941.

I would also withhold that this reogranisation was not because of the rapid extension of the panzerwaffe, and instead because it was a lot easier for a panzerdivision to maintain a lower proportion of panzer units. Later the panzer themselves would become smaller(and not fewer) this would then be because of inudstrial concerns.

Should specify that these tank battalions were not organic to the infantry division structure, but became a de facto permanent attachment to most divisions assigned to the Med and NWE theatres, similar to how the Chemical Mortar Battalions were doled out. America could afford this because, well, America.



US infantry divisions were not in fact formally motorized, ie, having their own trucks as part of their permanent organization. What they did have was access to the absolutely immense fleet of general service vehicles that accompanied the US Army everywhere it went, and split their time between supply and troop movement tasks as ordered by higher command. In cases where speed was necessary, entire divisions could rapidly be put on wheels in this way, but it should be understood this was temporary, and most infantry GIs did an amount of marching that would not have shamed their ancestors in the 1860s.

Yeah well I see your point. However "de facto" is good enough in HOI4 ;)

There is a widespread belief that only tanks had offensive power. However, considerable numbers of highly successful attacks were carried out by infantry with no tank support at all. The key difference infantry of the 1940s had compared to their fathers in WWI was that the infantry heavy weapons, the machine guns, mortars, and other equipment that provides the bulk of their fighting power, were now portable. All that stuff existed in 1918, but was much less mobile and therefore there was a huge firepower gap between defenders, secure in their entrenchments with their full arsenal, vs attackers who had to struggle out in to no man's land with rifles, bayonets, grenades, and not too much else. The first inklings of really portable crew-served weapons only started to come out at the end of that war.

The key difference in infantry vs armoured offensive potential is not so much smashing power, which both could have if led and supported correctly, but operational ability to exploit that breakthrough. Infantry could and did make a hole in the line, but was too slow to turn local tactical victory in to a real strategic success, by striking deep in to the enemy rear to cut supply and lines of retreat, etc.

Well truth is also that the German infantry divisions were starting to get worn out already after 1941 and in pretty bad shape after 1942. My point is not that infantry is inherently bad, but specifically the German infantry divisions were badly equipped and manned in general.

Proffessor Sönke Neitzel discusses this in one of his books. Basically it is often mentioned that the 80-75% of all german causualties were at the eastern front, and that the eastern front usually contained a similar proportion of germans soldiers. What is not mentioned is that the german eastern front had a higher concentration of infantry divisions and that these were badly equipped on several levels, not enough artillery, the bolt action rifles were not replaced etc. The men in these divisions were basically cannon fodder and therefore badly trained, and unexperienced. These infantry divisions had no offensive power.
 
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The only country that replaced bolt action rifles completly was the USA.

The soviet had the svt40 but switch back to the bolt action mosin nagant after the huge looses in 41.

Germany startet with the g43 rifle and the sturmgewehr 43-44 from ~43 on but cant produce enough.

I dont know any attempt of the british, italien or japanese of any self loading rifle.

France was in reasearch and testing but didnt put anything in production befor germany knocked at the border.
Interestingly france planed to equipe only combattroops with a self loading rifle. All others support troops who not should be direct combat with enemy troops should get the easy to produce MAS 36 as their weapons cause they dont need expesive self loading rifles. Its an interesting choice.
 
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From what I am reading right now the change actually started right after the invasion of Poland, was ongoing during 1940 and 100% completed in 1941.

It is correct that some Panzer Divisions in 1940 had only a single Panzer Regiment. 6-9th Panzer Div had this organization. The reason for this was that they were the former 1-4. Leichte-Divisions, which had been formed by the cavalry arm for the Polish campaign. These started with a single battalion of tanks and a cavalry rifle brigade. Found to be too light to fight, they were upgraded to Panzer Divisions during the Phoney War, but sufficient numbers of tanks to give the early two regiment organization were not to hand. They went in to France with what they had, as you can see here:

http://niehorster.org/011_germany/40_organ_army/_40_org_army.html

I would also withhold that this reogranisation was not because of the rapid extension of the panzerwaffe, and instead because it was a lot easier for a panzerdivision to maintain a lower proportion of panzer units. Later the panzer themselves would become smaller(and not fewer) this would then be because of inudstrial concerns.

In the aftermath of their stunning success in the 1940 campaign, beyond all reasonable expectation, Hitler ordered that the number of Panzer Divisions be doubled. There were 10 in 1940, and 20 for Barbarossa next year. Just replacing the losses to existing units incurred during Fall Gelb was stretching the German industry to the limit, so there was simply no choice but to halve the number of tanks per division, and double the infantry. A number of former infantry divisions were broken up and their regiments motorized and farmed out to the Pz. Div in this way over the winter of 40/41. Indisputably practical experience of just how vulnerable tanks could be without adequate infantry escort was gained...but we shouldn't discount that the merciless arithmetic of "how many running tracks do we have to fill out all these new units?" was a factor in the reorganization as well.

Well truth is also that the German infantry divisions were starting to get worn out already after 1941 and in pretty bad shape after 1942. My point is not that infantry is inherently bad, but specifically the German infantry divisions were badly equipped and manned in general.

Proffessor Sönke Neitzel discusses this in one of his books. Basically it is often mentioned that the 80-75% of all german causualties were at the eastern front, and that the eastern front usually contained a similar proportion of germans soldiers. What is not mentioned is that the german eastern front had a higher concentration of infantry divisions and that these were badly equipped on several levels, not enough artillery, the bolt action rifles were not replaced etc. The men in these divisions were basically cannon fodder and therefore badly trained, and unexperienced. These infantry divisions had no offensive power.

"No offensive power" is a pretty drastic term. I would use "lowered", because things are relative. An infantry division with a bolt action service rifle, 48 gun artillery regiment, engineer, antitank, recce battalions, was pretty decent by 1940s standards. There will of course be huge local variations in training, readiness, % effectives from division to division, so I hesitate to paint them all with the same brush. A division on boring occupation duty in a fjord in Norway is not going to look like one that just got mauled blunting Operation Mars. But at this point we're just splitting hairs so it's not a big deal :)
 
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The only country that replaced bolt action rifles completly was the USA.

The soviet had the svt40 but switch back to the bolt action mosin nagant after the huge looses in 41.

Germany startet with the g43 rifle and the sturmgewehr 43-44 from ~43 on but cant produce enough.

I dont know any attempt of the british, italien or japanese of any self loading rifle.

France was in reasearch and testing but didnt put anything in production befor germany knocked at the border.
Interestingly france planed to equipe only combattroops with a self loading rifle. All others support troops who not should be direct combat with enemy troops should get the easy to produce MAS 36 as their weapons cause they dont need expesive self loading rifles. Its an interesting choice.
Actually I am referencing this video

I do not talk about "completely" replacing anything or that this replacement have to be a semi-automatic rifle. The fact is however that the Germans were outgunned in for example Stalingrad where the russian units often had replaced their bolt-rifles, not by semi-automatic rifles, but by SMGs. This was something was continuesly done in soviet assault units, and certainly in other countries assault units too.

Infantry that are assaulting anything will get into CQ combat, and by this time Bolt-action rifles were obsolete. A infantry unit trying to defend against an infantry assault will be in exactly the same situation. If you give each squad max one or two SMG that will not be enough when a numerically superior assualt unit attacks you.

Then of course I mentioned more than bolt-action-rifles.
 
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We can see that it was pretty obvious for the germans to concentrate the panzerdivisions if they wanted to achieve a breakthrough(offensive power) and exploit it(speed), and also that the "panzer armies" used in later war was not as large as one might think. They simply contained the correct amount of divisions, but not the expected amount of men and tanks.

The main unrealistic thing I see in the game is that the division are reinforced to fast. During Fall Gelb some panzerdivision were down to 30-50% of its tank strength. That's what makes "spare" tanks so important.
It’s a big part of the game coming up with the right size Army that will do the job and you can support on the battlefield. General Eisenhower and his team dealt with this problem on a daily basis.

I’ve found it’s important on my forays across Europe to Germany not to make too many Tank Brigades, or too many Divisions of any type. It’s important that you have a balance, a reserve to reinforce your losses. If you start building too many Tank Brigades even the USA with it’s industrial might can’t keep up. If you don’t build enough of the right kind of Divisions-Germany will send you packing. You must make sure you have a reserve for every type of unit put in the field. That, the supply issues and General de Gaulle refusing to improve infrastructure like Ports and Air Fields. It can get tough to support large Armies.

I hope this issue is addressed in the supply improvements in a Country like France. Who gets to build the supply hubs or control them, the player or General de Gaulle? Or do I misunderstand how they'll work?
 

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"No offensive power" is a pretty drastic term. I would use "lowered", because things are relative. An infantry divisions with a bolt action service rifle, 48 gun artillery regiment, engineer, antitank, recce battalions, was pretty decent by 1940s standards. There will of course be huge local variations in training, readiness, % effectives from division to division, so I hesitate to paint them all with the same brush. A division on boring occupation duty in a fjord in Norway is not going to look like one that just got mauled blunting Operation Mars. But at this point we're just splitting hairs so it's not a big deal :)
At this point I am just referencing military history visualised, however in some videos he is quoting the Wehrmachts own rating of the "qualifications" of the divisions. Already by 1942 the proportion of divisions suited for different kinds of offensive operations were had gone down enormously.
 
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Regarding OP gameplay trouble, I believe the AI managed front is less than ideal to manage Armored Division distributed accross the front as "heavy punch" reserve like they were in real life. Still, personnaly I like to use them this way and micro manage them in case of trouble. That said it has been a long long time since I have played Germany long enough to face the Soviet Union.

You can mitigate the AI troubles by using smaller armies/corps groups. I used to find a groups of 6/8 Infanterie Division supported by a few Panzer-Division fine. Especially for Heeresgruppe Nord as the forests along the Baltic sea make poor envirnonment for Panzer-Divisions yet you still need so punch to advance forward.
 

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While we seem to be splitting hairs here, i'd rather be doing this than some of the more toxic threads that have been popping up.

I enjoy the videos, but they sometimes cannot go into the details behind the statements they provide. And sometimes, they are just wrong.

Germany did double their number of Panzer divisions after France. They did so by reducing the number of tanks in the division. But note that the pre-France Panzer Divisions (not the Light Cav versions) were tank heavy. The overall combat power of those reduced Panzer Divisions increased (more Pz IIIs). Most majors had tank heavy armor divisions early war, except the French DLM.

Everyone had bolt action rifles (except the US) and at no time should you consider them obsolete. You need to look at the light machine gun (LMG) that was used, as that is what provided the squads combat power. Riflemen were there to carry ammo and protect the LMG.

Soviet use of the PPsH (SMG) was to compliment existing squads (with bolt action rifles and LMGs). SMG squads had an advantage in close quarters combat but were at a disadvantage in normal, extended range combat. Very easy to suppress someone who can't fire back at you because their weapon can't reach. Ideally, a squad should have a mix of rifles and SMGs (and their LMG). While not shown that way on "official" Soviet TO&Es, I'm sure in practice, the veteran Soviet infantry would look like that.

Quick mention about the US infantry. They did have semi-automatic rifles. More importantly, they had the logistical backing to keep them supplied with ammo. What they didn't have was an effective LMG. They had a medium machine gun they used in the LMG role. They also had the BAR, an automatic rifle. On paper, one was assigned to a squad. Some even had two. The "proper" use of that weapon would be one per fire team. But not sure if that every happened in WWII. I would equip WWII Marines that way (3 BARs per squad), but I am biased in that respect.

Germany always had problems fully equipping its infantry divisions. They raised them in "waves", with equip variations in each wave. By Barbarossa, most of the front line divisions were equipped to 1st wave standards. After a few years of Eastern Front combat, there were huge variations in what equipment those infantry divisions had. And this is excluding all of those specialty divisions built for static, garrisons and security duty.
 
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They also had the BAR, an automatic rifle. On paper, one was assigned to a squad. Some even had two. The "proper" use of that weapon would be one per fire team. But not sure if that every happened in WWII. I would equip WWII Marines that way (3 BARs per squad), but I am biased in that respect.

USMC did in fact issue one BAR per four man fire team, that's three per 13 man squad, in their late war organization. The US Army infantry had to cope with just one officially authorized BAR per squad. The Garand is an outstanding weapon for the time, of course, but an incremental advantage in volume of rifle fire is nowhere near as significant as the fire of battalion, regimental, and divisional heavy weapons, of which the US had a large amount and perhaps more importantly, almost unlimited supplies of ammunition for. They could do fire missions all day.

With their frontier heritage it makes sense that the US would emphasize the individual rifleman in their doctrine. Germans mostly grew up without a strong tradition of civilian marksmanship, so they emphasized crew served weapons. Drawing the lessons from the first war, by 1939 they had essentially transformed their entire infantry in to a giant collective conveyor belt for light machine guns and their ammunition. The individual rifleman was not considered a significant firepower component.

I think we tend to emphasize individual weapons more because they feel more personal. It's an understandable human trait.

OK, enough digressing from the point of the OP for me!
 
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I choose to see it as this, theoretically all countries would like to have 100% armoured divisions, no mather if it is airborne tanks, mountain tanks, amphibious tanks.

Things is, it expensive and requires a high amount of supply. So you have to limit your amount of tanks an decide how to use them, spread them out or concentrate them.

The Germans concetrated their tanks in panzerdivisions, which in 1939 had one panzerregiment and 2 motorised infantry regiments. This was smart as tanks needed supporting infantry, infantry cover etc. And also they needed maintanance and supply. The Soviets had alot more tanks in their 1941 tank divisions and that caused problems which supply and maintanance.

The americans in 1943-1945 had at least one tank battalion in each infantry division. Then they had armoured divisions.

So ok, armoured divisions do 2 things, breaks through and then exploits and crushes anything that tries to hinder them.

Infantry divisions generally hold the line. However if a breakthrough is achieved the line will extend fast and then motorised divisions will have be used to quickly reach the new lines so the armoured division will not be cutoff. All US and UK infantry divisions except for, special units, were motorised. The Germans did not have ability to motorise all their infatry units. 100% motorised units were rare, and the motorised regiments of the panzerdivisions were prioritsed.

I believe that the panzerdivisions were spread out during the Poland campaign. However during fall Gelb, the invasion of France through Benelux, Panzer corps were used, which contained 3-4 panzer divisions. As the German infantry was so non-motorised, these corps moved far ahead of the rest of army. A lone panzer division would not have that ability to fully exploit a breakthrough(to they could create them) would have a less "spare" tanks as losses were taken, and would have a harder time defending itself from being cut off.

A panzer division in a corps together with motorised divisions would have fared better, but would not have had spare tanks. A panzer divsion in a corps together with non-motorised infantry divisions would have been to slow.

Now as I said there where few motorised units besides the motorised regiments in the panzerdivisions, so the best choice would obviously be to use a panzer corps full of panzerdivisions. They had both speed and "spare" tanks.

As said the US Infantry divisions had tank battalions. The German infantry divisions was supposed to have a stug battery each but too few stugs were made.

This and other things meant that the German infantry divisions in general had less offensive power(and it would get worse as the war progressed).

So if we take all the things in account:

1. The infantry of the panzerdivisions were often the only motorised infantry units = the panzer divisions were the only "fast divisions"
2. As the war progressed the panzer division more and more become the only divisions with offensive capabilities

+ 3. bonus, Hitler insisted on raising no units instead of reinforcing old ones, meaning that the division were much smaller in reality than on paper especially concerning tanks.

We can see that it was pretty obvious for the germans to concentrate the panzerdivisions if they wanted to achieve a breakthrough(offensive power) and exploit it(speed), and also that the "panzer armies" used in later war was not as large as one might think. They simply contained the correct amount of divisions, but not the expected amount of men and tanks.

The main unrealistic thing I see in the game is that the division are reinforced to fast. During Fall Gelb some panzerdivision were down to 30-50% of its tank strength. That's what makes "spare" tanks so important.
Actually on pure tonnage historically an infantry division requires almost twice the supply as the average tank division. It's the fuel and maintenance that are the limiting factors.
 

Hjalfnar

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Feb 24, 2013
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Actually on pure tonnage historically an infantry division requires almost twice the supply as the average tank division. It's the fuel and maintenance that are the limiting factors.
Especially true for German divisions. What many people don't realise is the massive amount of horse food (and horse handlers) you needed to keep a German infantry division operational. Since horses can't just eat gras. Tends to make them ill. So you need to not only supply horse-reliant divisions with ammunition, food, water etc., but also with food for their logistics. A high number of trucks turns this around to fuel and spare parts...but those are far easier to transport and stockpile, as long as you have the industrial capacity to do so.

Edit:
Anyway, to come back to the original topic: Concentrated armour forces were the standard of WW2. Nothing to debate about really. Sure, at one point the US had enough tanks to spread out essentially support companies (in the HoI4 context) of tanks to most of their infantry divisions. Since well, infantry tends to operate better with tank support lending them MG-proof moving cover with a big gun to shoot back with on top. There is a reason the US infantry loved the M4 105mm (which was really a Sherman turned into something like a StuG or rather StuH, just with a turret). For basically everyone else this wasn't an option due to industrial constraints. Reminds me of something I read in a German military history magazine. US soldiers were escorting a bunch of German tank crews that had surrendered in the aftermath of the Ardennes offensive to the next PoW camp and they came across a supply depot where like 100 spare M4 were lined up...and the Germans were just completely dumbfounded that the Allies just had 100 SPARE TANKS standing around in case they lost one on the frontline.
 
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