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Eugenioso

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Let me explain what a coastal fort is, ingame: A structure that costs a not too low amount of IC (in this case, considering no research or minister bonuses), that takes a tremendously large amount of time to build (more than land forts, if i recall), and which serves to do two things, give a penalty to amphibious landings, and slowing down the attack itself, meaning it takes longer for the battle to play out. The higher the level of coastal fort, the higher the penalty, the longer the battle will go on.

So, for a cost of 5 IC, and nearly 2 years of building, you buy a static position that draws out combats, allowing the enemy to suffer more casualties, but at the same time you also suffer casualties.

The first thing, the penalty. Seriously, Amphibious landings in the game are already a tricky issue that the game engine was just not meant to handle (and even then, consider the impossibility of landing 100 divs on a single beach all at once). Amphibious landings give titanic penalties to everyone using them (less so for marines, but more on that in a minute), so the addition of more penalty issues thanks to fortifications seems like a complete waste of time. If you add in a paratroop landing on a beach province with coastal forts, these will NOT factor on the outcome of the battle. That means that, potentially, a lvl 10 coastal fort guarded by a single garrison div could easily(another reason in a bit) hold a beach against overwhelming numbers at least until reinforcements arrive, but a 4 div paradrop could wipe it out in about 5 hours, allow for the previously stated overwhelming numbers to land unopposed, and push inland.

Second of all, the time. The higher the coastal fort, the more time it takes to beat a garrison, thus fulfilling the apparent purpose of the coastal fort (if the original purpose would be "hold them off on the beaches" instead of "kill them BEFORE they land"). But then, what happens to a garrison without a coastal fort? after it´s org drops, it will retreat to a neighbouring province, most of it´s strength still intact, and allow it to take action afterwards. With a coastal fort? The garrison will fight on, inflict a higher amount of losses on the enemy, lose most (3/4) of it´s strength and then retreat. the result? either buy some time at the expense of more damage, or lose faster but less org/strength loss.

Essentially, this means that you are wasting IC on fixed positions that will, assuming no reinforcements, be lost, and can easily be exploited? This doesnt even touch on the subject of paradropping on coastal, non beach provinces that you wouldnt defend because it made no sense. The paradrop/amph landing exploit is too well known to simply be ignored. I am not saying that a single garrison division should not be able to hold off an invasion force composed of hundreds of thousands of men (we have D-Day, dont we?), but i am saying that if i spend 50 IC total to build a lvl 10 fort, then said invasion force would be utterly obliverated before half the landing force set foot on the beach. There is a reason the ports were not directly attacked during D-Day, because they knew they were too well defended and fortified to be attacked upfront. if i have 13000 men defending cherbourgh, all well supplied with massive amounts of artillery and concrete bunkers (to simulate level 10 coastal forts), and the enemy launched an invasion into it, then it is completely possible that d-day would have been a titanic disaster.

And also, there is the issue of softness on landing. By softness, i refer to the individual value each unit has for softness and hardness. Infantry have almost total softness, means they take more damage overall from soft attack, while hard targets have the opposite. By a sheer twist of logic, it makes sense that you cannot simply send tanks on landing ships to capture a beach, because of all the different factors (shore level, obstacles, the sand itself, etc) that would make it impossible to do so. A few support tanks, ok, but a whole division? Anyway, that´s not the issue. The issue itself is the inability of even lvl 10 coastal forts manned by garrisons to kill armor. It stands to reason that the enemy expects infantry to attack, clear out obstacles THEN call the tanks. Garrisons (even mid level infantry) do not have good hard attack values. Despite the penalties suffered by armor, once they land, the garrisons will barely scratch them. The tanks, meanwhile, can rip apart the garrisons. Do you see the issue? if i launch Marines, with full research done, the one advantage they have is that they dont suffer such a titanic amount of penalty as other units, allowing for quicker capture of ports. Launching 7 div marines with artillery or amph. armor brigades can rip apart a garrison in record time, assuming no coastal fort. With coastal forts however, it becomes a waste.

Overall, that means that Coastal forts are meant to counter Marines, and not much else. Coastal forts negate the bonuses marines have, so they become like normal infantry, and take longer to capture beaches.

So, assuming i want to garrison france against possible attackers (lets say right after battle of france, historical treaty, as germany), i need 14 divs (if i recall correctly) to guard every beach province with at least 1 garrison. These garrisons are meant there as placeholders, to avoid facing raids rather than stopping a full invasion. So, lets say i spend the time, and the IC, to build lvl 6 forts between 1940 and 1943/44. my garrisons are all 1942 model (do they have 1942 models?) and ive given them AA, to stop the constant plane attacks. Note that that would mean 14*5*6, a total whopping 420, with 70 IC used per build level. Let´s also say i keep a garrison of 3 armor, or 3 motorized, to reinforce threatened beaches.

Lets see the possibilities of action against such a force:

Paradrop on top of a garrison. Since there is no stacking penalty for paradropping, that means that the UK/US could drop a good 8 paras (far more if there is a dedicated paratrooper build along with enough transport planes, both wholly doable for an american player, and at least partially for UK players) over a garrison, overwhelm it in a few hours, and secure landing for an invasion force, far away enough from any armor. Add to that shore bombardment by a dedicated fleet and the garrison, with -25% penalty, will crumble, and disappear.

Paradrop on an empty beach province. This is even easier, and far more exploity. The AI can be accused of being aware of this trick (or maybe they just really like to keep low dissent in their provinces) and will usually garrison nearly every coastal province. Still, look at above and come to your own conclusion.

Paradrop with landing. Both will NOT stack with each other. That means amph. landing penalties are not shared by paras, and viceversa. this means that a lvl 10 fort could (WILL) get overwhelmed very very fast. Again, factor in shore bombardment and laugh.

Landing with tanks. Assuming at least no immediate reinforcements, tanks will not suffer huge casualties to either strength or org, while garrisons will slowly get chipped away. a mass landing by armor will destroy a garrison not quite as fast as the ones above, but will certainly allow you freedom of action elsewhere.
 

parnis

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I thought this was a simple question, but I see you have far more experience than I do, Eugenioso. I thought that fortifications were always a waste as long as your country had the manpower to build more divisions. Is it more complicated than that?

I like to increase the infrastructure of the provinces I think I might be fighting in, because I hate fighting in low-infrastructure provinces, but a more skillful player would probably regard that as a waste too, I suppose.
 

nhinhonhinho

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I think land forts are way better than coastal forts and if I'm not mistake land forts are effective again all attacks instead of amphibious only

For infrastructure, they're the good choice, I too will try to build them if I have times and influx IC
 

Lucifer

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I think land forts are way better than coastal forts and if I'm not mistake land forts are effective again all attacks instead of amphibious only
For infrastructure, they're the good choice, I too will try to build them if I have times and influx IC
Land forts are useless against amphibious assault.
 

Epaminondas

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I don't find a lot to disagree with here, Eugen, but I think it's this extract that puts it all in perspective (my emphasis).

Essentially, this means that you are wasting IC on fixed positions that will, assuming no reinforcements, be lost, and can easily be exploited?

If you assume the absence of reinforcements then you've set up the coastal fort to fail. In both real and game terms the presence of garrisons in coastal forts wasn't designed to drive off invaders but, as you've said elsewhere, to delay them. And the purpose of delaying them was (and in game terms is) to give reinforcements held off the beaches time to intervene and defeat the invasion. If you invest the time and IC required to build a coastal fort and then defend it solely with a garrison unit and with no reinforcements within immediate striking distance then you deserve everything that you so aptly describe as coming your way. You wouldn't leave the defence of the Maginot line entirely in the hands of garrison units, so why would you expect to get away with that on the Atlantic Wall.

Your point about the use of paras to 'invalidate' coastal forts is also a sound one, but what we're running up against here is the scale of the map. In real terms the first 'reinforcements' that could be expected to intervene against an invading force, be it airborne or otherwise, would be those regular (though probably not first line) units stationed in the vicinity. But because the map uses province locations, and because those provinces occupy a lot of actual area, that vicinity needs to be considered as being within the province in which the fort is located rather than an adjoining one. So sitting a regular unit in your coastal fort along with its garrison would not only blow out that 5 hour window you mention but also represent real life practice - and as in real life (unless your afraid to wake Hitler up) it should give you the time needed to get your counterstroke into gear.

To put it more succinctly after all that, coastal forts need to be viewed as only the surface of a multi-layered strategy for defeating invasions.
 
Last edited:

Lucifer

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Lots of good points here, and a very good point made about the scale of the map.

I would add several other points, not to refute any argument but to highlight aspects which may have been overlooked.

-A level 10 land fort/coastal fort didn't exist in any province during ww2, except in German (and French) propaganda. 10 is an ingame upper limit, but why not 20 after all? Forts were not forming a continuous line, but were devised to block some key points or to choke some others. Even the Maginot line was not a continuous line like the Great Wall (I had some parts of it few km away from where I used to live). You could have locally something like a level 10 (the way we imagine it), like the harbors defended along the Atlantic wall. Why there? Because they were vital for supplying an invasion force. OKW knew it, and even if it didn't want to loose the beaches it still thought that it would have a chance to choke an invasion force by ultimately prohibiting its supplying. What OKW didn't know was the importance of the Mulberries which totally threw through the window its strategic thinking; harbors were still important for the long term success, but not anymore during the early phase of securing the beachhead. So, here, the problem is again with the way the supply is modeled in DH; it is not really realistic outside Western Europe where the level of infrastructure was very high (and which mask the weakness of the modeling), and it is not realistic outside a campaign purely terrestrial. Modifying the other aspects of the modeling in DH (whatever it may be, and which may not be a problem) to compensate the OT issue may actually create more issues than solving the ones exposed here.

-It is difficult to compare any result with IRL when OOBs don't match. We were talking of landing of 5 PAR when the Allies had only 3 (2US+1UK) during DDay

-Tank, motorized and mechanized divisions should be totally prohibited to land by design. Right now, this is an heresy to have them in a landing. Only amphibious tank brigades should be allowed during an amphibious assault.

-Except in few cases, and locally (commando), there is no real justification for a division of paratroopers to get no malus at all when landing on a province with a land fort, for the reason that these forts (at a province level) once again were not a single line but usually a series of hedgehogs. What they could do was to disrupt the resupplying of the defenders or to secure a bridge. The way I see it, PAR should get a malus in such attack but should also provide a malus to the defending stack. I freely admit that I have not strongly exposed this last point.
 

bosman

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I won't say anything revealing but it depends. In case you have control over beaches and you expect an invasion from sea it's worthy IMO.
Land forts can be often and easier used by enemy and this may be significant disadvantage in certain scenarios.
There is not such problem with coastal forts (except for single islands), so you can use quite effective strategy by putting relatively small forces in sea provinces with high-level forts and weaken the enemy enough to then counterattack with also relatively small forces or to be able to send proper reinforcements on time.

For continental beaches it's rather worthy and less risky than any land fort defence line.
 

darkesthourmang

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Let me answer with a simple anecdote:

The British were attempting to land over 50,000 men in Malmo, Sweden, 1917. I had one garrison division stationed there with 2 coastal forts, a mere pittance of 10,000 men. That garrison division suffered just over 1,000 losses while inflicting over 10,000. Coastal forts. :D