• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

zodium

Person
31 Badges
Sep 9, 2013
3.313
13
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
Are you aware of a specific game mechanic that causes coalition leaving as the result of 0 AE wars?
in other words, is it confirmed that spending 3 years at war with 0 AE at the end is different to spending 3 years at peace doing nothing that increases AE?

My own experience is that ending a war is often followed by nations leaving a coalition. But this is because they cannot leave it when I (or they) are at war. If I was at war when their five year minimum coalition term expired, and if by the end of the war I had done nothing further to antagonise them, they will all leave when I declare peace.

But if I hadn't gone to war at all they would have left earlier. I wasn't aware that the 0 AE war was having any active effect of its own.

Have you find that there is some benefit to 0 AE war specifically? That would be awesome .

If they are sufficiently beaten down in terms of manpower/prestige/rebels/etc., it's possible that they temporarily change from Outraged to Threatened attitude, and this may put them over the magical threshold if they are already close to it. It doesn't really have anything to do with the peace offer itself, and it's not an effective way to counter coalitions in the late game.
 

TheBloke

Field Marshal
30 Badges
Sep 18, 2010
3.872
15
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
If they are sufficiently beaten down in terms of manpower/prestige/rebels/etc., it's possible that they temporarily change from Outraged to Threatened attitude, and this may put them over the magical threshold if they are already close to it. It doesn't really have anything to do with the peace offer itself, and it's not an effective way to counter coalitions in the late game.

Ah OK, so you're talking specifically when I'm at war with a nation in the coalition, and I beat them down thus making them more likely to be threatened, but do not incur more AE which would (more than) counterbalance that.

OK, thanks.

It's a big shame that peace deals can generally only cause you negative relations[SUB]*[/SUB]. As others have said in the past, I think there should be a "Good Boy" mechanic that rewards you for:
  • taking less WS than you earned
  • not taking AE
  • releasing nations / returning cores, where those nations/cores had been annexed by the losing side
    • should give relationship benefits to general nations, more than just the nation(s) directly benefiting.
There's already an awful lot of Bad Boy type mechanics in the game; there should be counter balancing Good Boy ones as well. The game should make some attempt to model 'altruistic' wars, i.e. reward nations who stand up to Bad Boys and defeat them, but do not do so (seemingly) for personal gain, as demonstrated by their modest peace treaty and 'Peace Keeping' activities of returning conquered territory to its original owner.


* the exception being release nations / return cores, but these only give positive relations to that one affected nation.
 
Last edited:

Chipawah

Second Lieutenant
1 Badges
Dec 3, 2007
140
9
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
The major point of coalitions is to encourage strategy on a grand scale, meaning that there are better and smarter ways to expand than simple straightforward conquest. Coalitions are boring and tedious to face, yes. They don't really stop you, just slow you down and make you frustrated, yes. Now if there was only another way, some sort of strategy, that would allow me to expand and achieve the same results, faster, and with less tedious and boring wars against coalitions, then I would certainly be encouraged to work out and use such a strategy instead...and no strategy is not "gamey", strategy is what it is, a way to achieve your goals that seems most suitable to your current situation. If you don't want to use it, then you are choosing a less effective strategy, meaning that your game experience might be less rewarding and more frustrating.
 

TheBloke

Field Marshal
30 Badges
Sep 18, 2010
3.872
15
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
The major point of coalitions is to encourage strategy on a grand scale, meaning that there are better and smarter ways to expand than simple straightforward conquest. Coalitions are boring and tedious to face, yes. They don't really stop you, just slow you down and make you frustrated, yes. Now if there was only another way, some sort of strategy, that would allow me to expand and achieve the same results, faster, and with less tedious and boring wars against coalitions, then I would certainly be encouraged to work out and use such a strategy instead...and no strategy is not "gamey", strategy is what it is, a way to achieve your goals that seems most suitable to your current situation. If you don't want to use it, then you are choosing a less effective strategy, meaning that your game experience might be less rewarding and more frustrating.

I agree in part. The presence of coalitions does indeed encourage alternative strategies. And, as I gave examples of in an earlier post in this thread, they are somewhat successful in doing that, and for me at least have enhanced the game by forcing me to think differently, which I have enjoyed.

Therefore I would not say that coalitions are completely broken, or serve no purpose, or should be removed completely.

But it's still possible for a feature to achieve some of its goals, but to do so in a sub-optimal way. I believe this description fits coalitions perfectly. They do serve to encourage (or often, require) alternative strategy. But they would serve that purpose a lot better, and would add to the game much more, if they were improved along the lines detailed by many people in this thread.

Coalitions force you to think of alternative ways to expand, and to be smarter and more varied in your techniques. This is good. But in effect, they act just as a roadblock, with the only strategically rewarding action being to work out how to go around them. I'm forced to vary my strategies because coalitions sit there blocking me from going direct; in varying my strategies, the game improves.

But it would improve a whole lot more if it was sometimes strategic to go around them, and sometimes strategic to go through them, and the strategy and risk/reward of going through them was balanced and interesting in and of itself. It should be possible through careful planning to expand without facing serious coalition opposition - perhaps therefore expanding slower than one otherwise might. It should also be possible to expand fast and hard, thus facing serious coalition opposition, and then be able to carefully plan and strategise for how to handle and defeat the coalition. It's this latter part that is missing.

Late game coalitions usually do not represent a serious threat, they just block you from doing anything further. There's no risk, there's no reward, it's just an anchor. Yes you can plan carefully to avoid the anchor. But it would be even better if you could also plan carefully to remove the anchor.

Good strategy should involve weighing up risks and rewards. pros and cons, with a variety of different choices available, all of which should be variable according to circumstance and according to an individual's ability and preference. Coalitions don't meet that definition yet. But they could and hopefully after more patches, they eventually will.
 

zodium

Person
31 Badges
Sep 9, 2013
3.313
13
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
There's already an awful lot of Bad Boy type mechanics in the game; there should be counter balancing Good Boy ones as well. The game should make some attempt to model 'altruistic' wars, i.e. reward nations who stand up to Bad Boys and defeat them, but do not do so (seemingly) for personal gain, as demonstrated by their modest peace treaty and 'Peace Keeping' activities of returning conquered territory to its original owner.

Force Religion used to fill this niche reasonably well before it was nerfed into oblivion.
 

Chipawah

Second Lieutenant
1 Badges
Dec 3, 2007
140
9
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
...

But it would improve a whole lot more if it was sometimes strategic to go around them, and sometimes strategic to go through them, and the strategy and risk/reward of going through them was balanced and interesting in and of itself.

Good strategy should involve weighing up risks and rewards. pros and cons, with a variety of different choices available, all of which should be variable according to circumstance and according to an individual's ability and preference. Coalitions don't meet that definition yet. But they could and hopefully after more patches, they eventually will.

I agree, but usually, the existence of a more solid coalition against you in the first place, is because you have chosen to go straight through everyone, so in most cases the strategy that should be most encouraged is to try a more subtle approach for a while.
 

PhoenixDown

Major
63 Badges
Jun 9, 2013
551
517
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
So you can conquer the whole world in 20 coalition wars after you blobbed for 150 years? Don't think that's the way to go. It's ok for major enemies, but what about 1-5 province minors joining the coalition? You can force vassalize them all at once and 100% against a minor is really easy, even if you loose the war.

Just make the separate peace with coalition members cost like 200% of normal warscore to take a province so conquering world through coalition wars is not efficient. Also add an option to make coalition member leave the coalition. Coalition leader should have the same rules as it stands(or be even cheaper, because revenge is a bitch) now when asking for tribute. It would make coalitions more fun and logical.
Also coalitions should be locked to continents/regions. I don't know how Aztecs joining Austria in coalition against me makes sense. I guess they talked things over on facebook.
 

Geobog

Sergeant
13 Badges
Mar 4, 2007
70
10
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
One thing that is not modeled so well is the economics and politics of the era. Many wars were fought over the status quo. Small to midsized countries would try to expand, and larger countries would get involved to either to maintain the status quo or to shake it up (if they think they can gain from it). A stronger country in Italy lessens both the political and economic power of France and Austria in the region. Both of these countries should try an take you down a notch. Something in between a coalition and a war for status quo, similar to that of Vicky 2, would better model this situation.

The HRE members were notoriously aggressive about expansion and maintaining power, helping lead to their decline (in addition to the Habsburgs poor management). If Tuscany expanded its power, you would be right to think that other HRE members would take notice. A minor becoming even slightly less of a minor disrupts the delicate balance in the region. Bremen should be interested in Tuscany's expansion, even if the game does not fully model they why.

If I was Bremen, and Tuscany expanded by taking part of Savoie (which France conquered in spite of the HRE's efforts in the first place), I would not be upset whatsoever; in fact, I would cheer them on because they liberated a part of the HRE from the BBB. Sure, if a bloated opportunistic Tuscany went on a rampage and took part of Austria (which I did do later on out of sheer vindictiveness), then start the darn coalition. HRE versus Tuscany with wargoal: Pipe down Tuscany you're freakin' us out. But if an Italian HRE member takes a Lombard HRE province from France (or any territory from France, really), then wouldn't the HRE be glad? Particularly NW German states that are a hop, skip, and jump away from northern France... which was expanding into the Netherlands? And why would actual French rivals come to their aid for this? I just can't imagine GB thinking "Aw, gee, Savoie really should be French for the sake of balance. Let's commit manpower and resources to get it back for them."

Coalitions should add to the story, flavor, and intrigue of the game, not just pee on players for taking territory. Perhaps more skillful use of alliances, warnings, guaranteed independence and enforced peace actions by the AI would be more appropriate than the senseless catch-all coalition.
 

BBBD316

Field Marshal
106 Badges
Jul 6, 2007
3.602
1.499
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
I would like to see leagues introduced as a regional alternative, threatened powers in the region would combined for either a defensive alliance that is only activated if you attack a member or an aggressive alliance that has a set goal the liberation of a annexed nation or return of cores to a country.

Coalitions should be only an issue in the last century or so of the game, also they should have a complex peace mechanism like the conference of vienna. Were the winners can dictate terms to the losers, breaking up nations being the primary goal of the defending nation.
 

Mann42

Colonel
125 Badges
May 7, 2012
903
263
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Sengoku
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Prison Architect
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
But it's still possible for a feature to achieve some of its goals, but to do so in a sub-optimal way. I believe this description fits coalitions perfectly.
I'm just endorsing this statement, and most of the level-headed commentary you participate in regarding coalitions across the many threads on this board. I repeatedly get to the part of a coalition discussion where you start saying everything I agree with, and decide I have nothing else to add.

Force Religion used to fill this niche reasonably well before it was nerfed into oblivion.
I miss the old Force Religion. I'm glad I was able to have fun with it before it was nerfed, but it's practically worthless now. :(