- ARCHIVE - Imperial Diet of the Holy Roman Empire

[Shogun 144]

Henreich looks at Gineri and says:


"Herr Gineri please do not misunderstand me, I am only suggesting war as a last resort in the case that sanctions are brought against Genoa and Genoa choses to ignore them. After all the his holiness is not a warrior."



Henriech then says:



"Please forgive me for offending you, the Archbishop does not want any hard feelings felt toward him."


After all this Henreich returns to his seat.

 

[BusterBunny]

De Laurendeau looks at the representative from Mainz.

"We thank Mainz for its support, but Burgundy does not which to spend thousand of ducats to war against in order to... prevent Genoa to spend thousand of ducats. It would be counter productive to kill Christians to prevent the killing of Christians. No, I think if we simply stop buying Genoese goods, then at least our monies won't serve to pay ships and swords for the heathens.

I am sure the representative of Mainz either got lost in the translation or acted a little harshly here. We need to concentrate on the goal here, which is to prevent Christian bloodshed at the hands of the heathens, and simply to insure that we will not give Genoa the rope to hang ourselves."

 

[unmerged(17500)]

Ljes Crnojevic pays the fine to the royal servant of the treasurer and then speaks

"Your majesty thank you for allowing me to be present in this diet and for the honor to represent my nation in this way.

In Ragusa we have taken personal arms against the Muslim threat. I think we have all forgotten that not only are our lives at stake here, but the souls of thousands. Those under the slavery of Islam, those who, now see the church weakening without a sword to thrust at the Muslims. We are in a situation that must be remedied. I will give you a few reasons why war with the Islam invaders is necessary.

First, to regain the rightful lands that have been lost and thusly spare the Christians there from Muslim intervention.

Secondly, to strengthen the bond of Christianity so as to gaurantee that we not only fight the Muslim devils but that we fight together thusly gauranteeing the improved trust throughout Europe and scare the devilsh attitude that Europe is ripe for the taking. No our states shall state Catholic without any questoin.

Thridly, to strengthen the Papal image, for they have decreed an Eastern Bulle, and if we allow their commands to be unanswered then we have failed in the face of God and will all be sent to purgatory for not obeying God's voice on Earth. The Lord's voice must be followed by a swift sword. Thus was the thinking of the great Charlemagne who first took the cause of acting as sword and shield to the Church. Without the sword the Papal state losses its ability to command Christianity.

Forthly, the states of Gelre have been declared war on, the very states some of you have alliances with. Their armies are dead and you have still talked and talked and talked without lifting a finger to aid them. Let Christianity rise in its glory and show the world who is the one true GOD!!!!

Fifthly, if you truely believe to be true Christians then you believe in the spreading of the faith, this means to expand our borders, Turkey is the starting place of such a movement.

Sixthly, the Muslims are seperated, the Mamelukes are fighting a seperate war, and will not bother unless we truely start to threaten them, at that point it being too late. They are divided. Only two nations are willing to support the Ottomans currently and we should unite and smight them now while they are only two and not six or eight or ten.

Seventh, to support the virginning lands of the Balkans. These lands are rich, Ragusa itself is known amongst you all for having the best ships in all the world as well as the best sailors. We only need to face our western coast instead of facing our eastern battlefield to develop our ports, and bring wealth to all Christian nations.

These are the seven points of Ragusa. Heed them as a message of faith in the powerful and godly nations of Europe, for they are the only reasons you need to not give monies to the Ottomans, or to join the war. We are one family, and only together shall we bind, succeed and fulfill the Papal desire to spread Christianity.

And if you question my loyalty to the Pope, then look to my brother, for he has made plans to give the Eastern most state in this conflict possible to the Pope, thus gauranteeing the Eastern Bulle on the next occassion that such an invasion may occur. We have also asked the Pope to assign a Cardinal to Ragusa as the place for Catholics to seek refuge and guidance. In addition we have asked the Pope to crown my brother King of Ragusa, and gain his support. Yes my friends Ragusa looks to strengthen its links with its Catholic father, for we are good children. When will the rest of its children finish their arguments and take action is my final question. Will it happen at all? Are you willing? Is Genoa willing? Is Burgundy willing? is Mainz willing? In the Holy Roman Emire Willing? I hope not to seem to forward but I have grave worries about my family, and my now current family in Gelre. My step-sister now cries for her lost country men in Anatolia, and I am sure that you will avenge their deaths, but when?"

Almost winded by his speech trying to convey his most heartened sympathy and love for his nation he has exuded all kind of energy left in his body. He bows to his majesty, sits with his head bent forward and calls a servent to fetch a glass of wine and a loaf of bread.

 

[unmerged(17489)]

"Gentlemen,
The archbishop of Cologne wishes not to go to war and will not do so unless he is attacked neither if it's heathens or genovans he is facing. However, he will follow the example of Burgundy and give a trade embargo to Genoa if they loan this money to the moslems and he will also pray for the honourable souls in Balkan that are defending their lands so bravely."

 

[Karamazov]

Leopold von Spangler speaks, for once not asleep:

It is clear to me that the Imperial Commerce Commission is causing more problems then it fixes, and if it serves to bankrupt an Imperial state and restrict trade into the Empire, then it is doing exactly the opposite of it's intent to increase the amount of wealth inside the Holy Roman Empire.

I move that a committee be created to rework the consitution of the ICC, so that the likelihood of internal conflict be lessened, especially over such minor treaties.

 

[unmerged(9313)]

Gineri wipes the sweat of his face.

"Well, it seems people have not turned totally mad just yet. Still, the Ragusans speak in very bombastic tones right now. I still want to see them prove their lies that we have paid money to the Muslims. Or perhaps they are content with being liars?
Now, it seems like we are getting nowhere with this loan-matter, and therefore I would like to turn your attention to the matter of the ICC. I agree with Leopold von Spangler, that the ICC does more damage than we can accept. In fact, I fail to remember when the Empire itself last did anything to help Genoese trade, and actually it has only strived to damage and restrict our wellfare.
In top of that, you still can't understand why we have removed our concentration of trade from Imperial lands in the past to those of the Muslims. The answer is simple... the ICC. Trade is open and booming in the Muslim realms, while here it is restricted, oppressive and in the hand of the Hansa, whos chairman funny enough is also the leader of the ICC. Looking at it like that, you must be ignorant if you can not see a connection. By punching us in our face with the ICC, you throw us in the arms of the "heathens", whether you like it or not. You hide behind the fact that the ICC is law, but by God, laws can be changed and should be so if they do more damage than good. We have asked for this before, but nothing has happened.
We do very little trading with the Empire itself, because our goods reach your lands through many middlemen. By embargoing us, you would have to give up spice, silk, ivory and many other things entirely, because there are several links between the Genoese merchant and the final market destination. Threatening us with embargoes once more shows that you know very little of our trade. Our customers are the ports from the Blacks Sea to Lagos in Portugal. Not inside the Empire. I doubt we even have a single merchant north of the Alps.
Gentlemen, you have demanded a lot from Genoa, but you have shown absolutely no good will towards us. You have threatened us with war, you refuse to prove your lies and you keep on pretending that we have the will to sacrifice ourselves for your sakes. Diplomacy is a matter of compromise, but somehow this fact has not found its way here."

 

[BusterBunny]

De Laurendeau turns to the Diet.

"Yes, it seems that most of us have never seen a Genoese merchant in our own cities.

Except for.... roughly 15 knows Genoese traders in Dijon alone. I remember seeing Genoese traders in Artois, also. I'm pretty sure there's a few in Pfalz, and in Cologne...

I think we all know the main land trade routes pass in our Empire also, two of them in Burgundy alone.

Oh, I DO think that Genoa will be impacted by this embargo. That, alone, will prevent Genoa from lending monies to the heathens. No need for war, which would be useless anyways.

I think Monsieur de Gineri has no idea where his own merchant are. But then, Monsieur de Gineri is also unsure of his overlord and his own religion, so should we be surprised, I ask you.

For Monsieur Von Spangler, who still ignores the use of the Imperial Commerce Commission... The ICC is here to REGULATE and PROMOTE trade. The ALIGN our commercial practices with our Imperial goals. I ask monsieur Von Spangler this... expecting a more definite answer than monsieur de Gineri: Should we allow Genoa to arm heathens to attack the Empire?

Monsieur de Gineri thinks than yes, and pledges our limited knowledge of trade to do so. To me, this answer is unsatisfying for the result is always the same: arming of the heathens.

I repeat the letter sent to the Doge a few months ago from a Khan:

"I hereby declare all our agreements cancelled. The Golden Horde will no longer trade silk or anyother goods with The Genoese people. I do thank you for the modern navy you have built us though."

This is the honor of the heathens. This is how they perceive us. They have no respect for trade agreements. They cancel them, and tell us "Danke for your ships, and merci for your swords". It is what I am reading, what are you all reading?

So if we can come to the conclusion that arming the heathens is unnacceptable, then what are our counter balance, monsieur VON SPANGLER? SMILING?

The ICC must act to this, and it must act now! War won't solve the issue, but arguing with the Genoese won't do a thing either. We ask them to choose, and they choose the Muslims. We are not the end client, but yet, embargoing Genoa would prevent us of many goods. HOW CAN IT BE THAT " By embargoing us, you would have to give up spice, silk, ivory and many other things entirely" but yet "We do very little trading with the Empire itself"?

Oh, I can predict that answe already. "We do not know anything about trade".

But we do know where our monies go. And they go in Genoese hands at one point.

I think when Monsieur de Gineri will understand the goal of the Empire and the goal of our Holy Church, and will comply to it with the restriction it imposes... amongst which not encouraging our ennemies to attack us... THEN we will listen to Monsieur de Gineri complaints about the ICC."

 

[unmerged(9313)]

Gineri laughs.

"Fine then, embargo us. I find the threat amusing. We do not care. Do you really think that when a Genoese merchant buys spice in Alexandria, that he or another Genoese merchant also sells it in Artois? We usually sell it to other merchants in Genoa or other Mediterranean cities, and THEY pass the goods on, not us. I do not know where you get your information from, good representative of Burgundy, but you get wrong ones, that is for sure. We have largely pulled out of the Atlantic trade and concentrated on the Mediterranean, especially since we took over management of the Portugese trade in that region. Count de Laurendeau, I suggest you get in touch with your minister of finance and get your facts straight. Like the Ragusans and their lies about us giving money to the Muslims. This is a tragic comedy, where my opponents only listen to their own voices.
Genoa has never doubted that the Empire would one day try to destroy our trade, and I see now that it is their true wish, at least if the voice of Burgundy represents the voice of the Empire. We will not be bullied around like little children, and an embargo will hurt yourselves more than it will hurt Genoa. We will just triple the prices and you will have to pay them, through those non-Genoese merchants that have to make a profit. Fine, count de Laurendeau, you do not seek compromise, but oppression. I thank you for at least being honest."

 

[BusterBunny]

De Laurendeau, for a rare time, talks directly to de Gineri.

"Monsieur de Gineri, I suggested the embargo come only when the Doge will loan monies to the heathens. As we said before, normal trade is all right by all standard, with only your Doge's conscious to tell him right from wrong. But as soon a thousand ducats will be sent to the heathens in the form of a loan... we will have to embargo Genoa. We will embargo the simple merchant in every cities, selling us goods from Genoa. Without monies, he will not continue to buy goods at the nearest house of trade, and the house of trade will not buy from the nearest ports, and ports will have to lower their prices for Genoese goods, at a point where merchants will not make any monies. And the merchants, from Genoa, will have serious questions to ask about the diplomatic abilities of your own Doge.

Venice and the Hansa already covers the majority of your ports, and I feel that the Italian Trade Federation also does so. Which such competition, we will have access to the same goods, only not from Genoese, but rather from Hanseatic or Venietian hands.

In the end, we will have access to the same goods, but we will be sure that our monies won't be lent to heathens in order to arm them and buy them ships of war.

Of course, all of this can be prevented if your Doge doesn't loan any amount of ducats to the nations of the heathens."

 

[unmerged(17489)]

Friedrich raises and clears his throat

"Gentlemen,
It's a sad thing that this day, when we all must face the threat from east united, we are more split than ever and suffering from internal conflicts. I do not wish to embargo the genoese, I really don't because they do indeed give us lots of goods from the eastern market to favourable prices. However, a bishop of highest rank can't accept that Genoa, or any christian country loans money to heathens, at war with christian nations. Herr Grimani must understand the situation of my Lord before he asks us to undrstand his Doges. You have said "Diplomacy is a matter of compromise, but somehow this fact has not found its way here". I agree to this, that both sides of this conflict have not been able to come much closer to eaach other. I speak both of me, many other delegates here and of you, herr Grimani, cause you can't say you have been trying to move towards our point more than we have done to yours. I believe that where diplomacy ends democracy begins and therefore I suggest we vote about this matter, with the Lord Chancellors permittion of course."

 

[unmerged(17500)]

Ljes after composing himself speaks

"Gineri we care not if you have loaned monies to them so far or not, or worries are for the future. The monies that we speak of are strictly in rumors, rumors that we have all heard of. It does not take a much to hear of talks between yourself and your heathen compatriots. Do not try to blind this Diet with your supposed innocence. I would be very VERY careful when you try to appoint the title of lier upon any Ragusan my friend, for we have never had ill will to any Genoan, and found your people as an example to the way that we should gain trade partners. However you would create a most dangerous situation if you loan to the Muslim threat, while your Roman brothers stand before them rady to fight. This is a simple request and not difficult. Europe does not want embargo your nation for we all suffer, but we will not be responsible for being the source for their armies. Understand in other situations we would normally not care, but this is unique and too dangerous to be ignored."

 

[unmerged(9313)]

Gineri smiles again.

"Count de Laurendeau, you still have not figured out how the Mediterranean trade works. We are the only ones trading spices, silk and other goods in the Ottoman Empire, with the Mameluks, the Timurids and Algeria. Of course, the Golden Horde has just ended our former agreement, but they wont trade with any Christian... at all! Venice has been outmanouvered a long time ago and Hansa presence in the Mediterranean is a joke, I'm afraid. As for the Italian Trade Federation, it only has luxury goods because WE provide it to them. Aragon has recently had its deal with the Mameluks cancelled and their privileges were turned over to... us. Count de Laurendeau, WE are sitting on the luxury goods and a huge chunk of the normal commerce, and no dream of yours will change that fact. Why can't you understand that we control the flow of spice, silk and ivory in the Mediterranean? Perhaps you do not wish to understand? If you refuse to let "Genoese" goods into your realm, then I hope for your sake that the Hansa can provide you with silk, spice and ivory in the amount a large realm as Burgundy needs it. You say our merchants must question the diplomatic skills of my Doge. Perhaps the nobility and clergy of Burgundy should question your rulers skill when the price on their silk and spice is increased many times up.
Anyway, a vote on the matter would not change anything. Genoa has received the threats, and we will act the way we deem appropriate. And even if we didn't provide loans to the "enemies of Christ", we still wouldn't get rid of the ICC. The tone in this Diet makes that quite obvious to us and the Emperor has been anything but forthcoming on this specific issue."

 

[unmerged(9313)]

Gineri then turns to the Ragusan.

"So you admit that it was a lie when it was stated, that Genoa had already loaned money to the "heathens"?"

 

[Shogun 144]

Henreich looks around clearly red-faced and says:



" Mainz stands behind Burgundy about embargo and I would like to apoligize for my outburst, I just get hot-headed about subjects cocerning the heathens."

 

[BusterBunny]

De Laurendeau speaks to the Diet.

"It is my understanding, as per our most recent knowledge of major trade routes, is in roughly the same ports as your are. So this is a non-issue.

And frankly, for a few women who likes silk, I, myself, prefer English wool! Far stronger than delicate silk!"

A few laughs can be heard in the Diet.

"You say Venice was outmanouvered, we will see. If we do not buy your goods, you will be in a poor position to buy much from the heathens. And without the ability to buy, the heathens won't be able to sell it to you. That way, they will look for another partner. Maybe Venice. Maybe a new power. But one thing is for sure: we have not fought and lost so many lives to the heathens in order to let our own desire for luxury re-arm them.

And if it means my wife will not get her silk dress or some rare spices to make a meal, I will deal with her.

With a clear conscience."

 

[unmerged(17500)]

"In the past six months this entire conversation has revolved around your future actions, I would imagine that that is the concern. I think the diet is asking for a concrete answer to whether you shall loan in the event that HRE gets involved militarily. If you can't answer this question then gentlemen we have no more to discuss on this matter, and can only wait to see Genoas actions, and then thusly react...swiftly. the question now stands will he HRE support the Eastern Bulle? Will you take action?"

 

[unmerged(9313)]

Gineri looks at the Ragusan.

"Your lack of answering is to me as good as any confirmation. You did indeed lie when you said that Genoa had provided loans to the Muslims. You, sire, are not fit to receive any answer. I am of the conviction that liars have no place in high diplomacy.
I will however answer the Burgundian. You prefer English wool, then fine, but I doubt all of your nobles and the clergy would agree with you. If you can get them to give up their old ways, I will bow before your ruler as the greatest there ever was. I'll even eat my own silk wardrobe. Your threats amuse me, count de Laurendeau. We have plenty of markets to sell our silk to. I am sorry, but Burgundy is not instrumental for our survival, and neither is the Empire. Our trade with your realm is no greater than what we have with Algiers. But yes, if Burgundy totally stopped using silk and spice, it might make us lose some money. But we could live with that. Your nobles would however have a different oppinion, I'd suspect. After a bloody war inside your borders, now you would take away the pleasures of nobility? Count, you somehow try to scare Genoa with an embargo, but we both know that it would never work in reality. I suggest that you come up with something better. War, as the Mainz representative boasted about, certainly does scare us. But nothing other than that. If you gentlemen want to subdue Genoa, as some want to, I suggest you ready your swords, because you will never achieve anything with threats."

 

[BusterBunny]

De Laurendeau answers.

"Monsieur de Gineri, we are trying to PREVENT a war, not to create one. If an embargo from the whole Empire doesn't scare you, I'm not even sure why you are battling as a devil in blessed waters to proove its innefectiveness. You surely have shown us you don't care about the Empire, with your willingness to arm our own ennemies. Why then should you even try to convince us to not embargo Genoa? You don't care of our fate, you don't care of our markets, and you don't care of our empire, and you don't care of our Holy Mother Church. So, let us do our "useless" things then. Surely you don't care about that either!
"

De Laurendeau turns to the Diet.

"The proposition is simple: a complete Imperial embargo of Genoa if it loans monies to the heathens."

 

[unmerged(17500)]

Ljes furious with Generi

"Your majesty Ragusa may not be part of the empire but we welcome to aid in any such efforts that Burgundy promotes.

If this was not an international matter, one with many political consequences, and instead one of a personal nature, I would duel this Italian for calling me a liar. However since I do not seek war with any nation, I shall not go to such lengths. Instead I will be the one to hold my tongue and keep from escalating personal animosity between our two nations. We still have not forgotten the support when we were under Venetian thumb, however I am afraid you sought to provoke the Venetian for your nations personal gain and not for a love of the autonomy of Ragusa."

 

[unmerged(9313)]

"You make an excellent point, count. We do in fact look after ourselves first, then our neighbours second. It is called normal behaviour. Also, you are right, that this matter has been debated long enough. The two sides of the matter has been thoroughly turned over. We should let things happen as they they will, then draw the consequenses of it. Genoa is ready, Burgundy is ready. Good.
Nonetheless, I still demand satisfaction from the Ragusans and everybody else that have accused Genoa of loaning money to the Muslims. That is a lie, and it has violated the honour of Genoa. You may find that we are a greedy bunch of opportunists, but we are NOT liars!"