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Gineri smiles as the Burgundian finishes.

"I want to thank your excellency for your kind words. They truely warm my heart, count. You carefully avoid the part where the interests of Genoa are at stake, and that takes a skilled diplomat.
Now... every ruler has the right and duty to do what is best for his realm. Can we agree on that?"
 

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De Laurendeau turns to the Lord Chancellor.

"Monsieur Seigneur Chancellier,

yes, the representative of Genoa asks us to think of the trade interest of Genoa. To me, at least, these trade interests of a few spices are not as important as the protection of the Holy Mother Church and the Holy Roman Empire. So I ask the representative of Genoa why he thinks that, since he obviously doesn't give a wooden ducat about the interest of the Empire, why he should ask of the Empire to give a wooden ducat about Genoa's interest. And we come back to the same question again: since Genoa feels it so important to arm ennemies of the Empire, why does it stay in the Empire in the first place? And since the Doge of Genoa is so keen on giving support to the heathens to fight the Holy Mother Church, why does the Doge of Genoa wants to stay part of the Holy Mother Church?

Genoa is the not the most pious nation of the Empire? I can live with that. You want to trade with the heathens? Only your conscious could be stopping you. Giving monies to the heathens to give them weapons to kill Imperial Subjects, and Brother Christians, it does bring many questions to this Diet.

May the Doge of Genoa do what it is best for its own nation. May he fight alongside the heathens against the Holy Mother Church if he wants to.

But may he not look surprised if he finds our most glorious Empire in his path. For this Empire is the Sword of the Church."
 

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Stefan Drechsler felt the weight of responsibility heavy on his shoulders. He was all to well aware that he had taken the position as Bremer representative in the Imperial Diet after Ullrich Dyck, almost a legend among the delegates, and certainly the most succesfull diplomat in recent Bremer history. Herr Dyck himself lived now in the Bremer holdings in Sweden, granted a noble title and an annual Imperial pension as reward for his long and faithfull service, and Stefan Drechsler knew he was not even near his predessors abilities.
Having remained silent throughout the discussion, as more skilled diplomats than him played the game of insults wrapped in compliments, of accusations and counteraccusations, of hidden loyalties and open alliances, he nevertheless felt he had to do what he was supposed to do, and be the voice, and not only the ears of Bremen in this noble assemble.

He rose, obviously nervous at entering into such a difficult discussion, and only in the last possible second, just before he was about to speak, did he avoid making a fool of himself by looking at the Steward and receiving a short nod of permission to speak. Not wanting to increase the damage, Stefan Drechsler made a show of bowing to the Imperial Throne before speaking:

"Herr Gineri, herr de Laurendeau.
I have with great interest followed the debate, and have now decided to add the opinion of Bremen to those allready expressed.

Herr Gineri, in reply to your latest question; yes, every ruler has the right, duty and obligation to do what is the best for his nation. However, every christian has the obligation to do what is best for the Holy Mother Church, and every vassal is oathsworn to at least listen to the opinion of his liegelord before acting.
Is Genoa or is Genoa not a christian state, and a vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor?

Bremen, as Genoa, is a duchy living of its trade, and I fully understand the desire of herr Gineri and the republic of Genoa to trade with the evil heathens. To make a profit by trading with those not of your faith is not in any way wrong. To diplomaticly support your trading partners, thus improving the good relations necessary for trade, is also understandable. But let it end there. Were I the duke of Genoa, I would tell the honourable moslem, whose existence I am taking herr Gineris words for, that obligations to my liegelord and fellow christian allies prevent me from aiding him military or economical in the struggle, but that I would, as a show of goodwill, not send any military or commercial aid to the participating christian nations.
And thus, Genoa would not only demonstrate obidience to the Holy Mother Church and the Holy Roman Empire, whom I assume are also among the important trading partners of the duchy of Genoa, but also show friendship despite the troubled times with the turks, whom I insist on calling evil."


Stefan Drechsler returned to his seat, relieved. That had went pretty well, he thought.
 

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De Laurendeau turns to the Lord Chancellor.

"What monsieur Drech..."

He hesitates, having trouble with his french accent to pronounce the name...

"What monsieur Dresler... Dreschler, the representative of Bremen and the Hansa, is saying is wholeheartedly supported by Burgundy and the House of Berry."
 
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Benedetto Correano speaks up.

“Signor Laurendeau, of course my Duke is loyal to his liege lord, the Doge, but my words are mine only, and my opinion is only influenced by the common sense. Also, we are overly grateful to Burgundy for creating our Duchy, but I don’t think our gratitude should influence me in this argument. In fact, it just makes me sad that Burgundy, a country that showed a great sense of truth and sympathy for the right cases in the past, as when the rebellious Duke of Savoy was crushed… that this country is now sticks to its own point of view so strictly that one could claim all Burgunds all deaf, for they don’t seem to hear any other opinion.”

Correano turns to the representative of Cologne.

“Signor Heinenburg, you are right, I could have cite more examples, but if so, my speech would have been lasted until dawn. Examples from the Holy Land where my great-grandfather fought and brought stories of christians and heathens saving the city together after the great earthquake of Antiocha… Examples from the times when the Moors conquered Hispania, when the heathens always tried to avoid any bloodshed.
You are talking about betraying, bathing in blood… Yes, these stories are surely true. But don’t forget the times when our crusaders took Jerusalem, and the noble knights, possessed by some evil, slayed the citizenry. The blood of the heathens reached up to the knee of the horses, even in the few christian temples of Jerusalem, the heathens fled in, for they knew it’s regarded as a sancuatry in our culture. But our Christians showed no mercy. Is such a behaviour could be dear to the Almighty?”

“Summa summarum: noble assembly, if our Emperor Joachim starts a crusade to save an endangered Christian kingdom, I promise I will be the first who follow him. Nonetheless, if His Most August Majesty strictly prohibits Genoa to lend this loan, I will bow my head and wholeheartedly accept the superior will. But right now, noble assembly, I think a Genoese loan would even help the cause of the Christianity regarding the long term effects, in accordance to my previous example of the poor farmer and the local Jew. Thank you, noble lords.”
 

unmerged(17489)

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The representative of Cologne speaks

"Herr Correano,
I am shocked by your words. What you are saying is that our crusaders is just as dishonourable scum as the heathens, that it's just as dishonourable to kill a heathen as a christian brother. Watch your tounge cause what you say is heretic and herecy is punished by death, at least in the country where I am from."

He turns to the genovan ambassador

"Herr Gineri,
could you please explain to us/me how a loan could help your trade. Forgive me my not so good knowledge about economy but I can't see how a loan could be so important. I know about interests but that can't be very important to the trade, can it? Also, I would like to see how important your trade with the heathens is for you, how much you gain from it and how much they do. Maybe my country can give you compensation if you make a total embargo against the heathens. I know that will hurt you much but if the trade means as much to the heathens as I think when I hear you speak it may save our brothers in faith. Do you not think that is worth it?"
 
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Benedetto Correano turns to the ambassador from Cologne with a gentle smile.

“Signor Heinenburg, forgive me if my words were misunderstandable. I merely wanted to say that every one of us can make mistakes, serious mistakes. Even the fighters of a blessed cause can sin, just like the heathens.
What is the greater sin? Killing a Christian murderer, or killing an innocent heathen child? Excuse me, signor,
but I think this would lead us away the current issue of the loans, and I don’t feel myself able to discuss such theological issues, for I am merely a simple reader of the Bible, I was not trained in holy matters.
Also, don’t think of me as a defender of the Muslim’s cause or something like this. I’m just saying that the Muslims are civilized beings, so they are honorable enemies of us.”
 

unmerged(17489)

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"Herr Correano,
To say the crusaders can sin is herecy and that's what you are doing. The crusaders were out in a holy cause and were punishing infidels. It's just as right killing a christian murderer as a moslem child cause both has comitten a crime and should be punished. If you say infidels shall not be punished for their faith, you question the law of Cologne, and many other catholic nations. I forgive you for now, cause you told me you were not very theological educated and I understand that when I hear it from an ambassador of a trading nation in Italy. However, I reccomend you to watch your tounge in the future and do not let any heretic words get out of your mouth within the doors of this court cause this is the court of the Holy Roman Empire."
 
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Lord-Chancellor of Reichstag, Baron Hans-Dietrich von Kuppelweiser replies to Ragusan, Ljes Crnojevic.

tn_kuppelweiser.jpg

“Your Grace,

There is no need for you to retreat from Nurnberg for you already shown that you are a man of Honour, nevertheless the letter of law must be obeyed and thus I impose on you a fine of 15 solidi paid to the Reichstag’s treasury. After that concluded you will have a right to observe, speak and represent your Duchy in these halls.”


Later on von Kuppelweiser comments on the new de Berry’s Coat of Arms.

“Monsieur de Laurendeau,

Truly we are impressed with these fields and indeed they bring even more splendor to the House de Berry and all parts of the Empire. We all know how noble this very House is and how much it did for the glory of God and fellow Christians.

I am sure that His Majesty will be delighted to speak with Your Grace concerning this project as soon as he return to Nurnberg.”
after that von Kuppelweiser gracefully bows to de Laurendeau.

*****

Admission of the new delegates

*****

Lord-Chancellor of Reichstag, Baron Hans-Dietrich von Kuppelweiser greets new delegates to the Imperial Reichstag in short ceremony and words.

”Signore Benedetto Correano, herr Henrich von Bulich, Your Grace Niccolo IV d'Este

We are all most pleased to see that delegates from Piemonte, Mainz and Modena are again present in the Imperial Diet. It is good to know that my letters of invitations have been answered so quickly. Your credentials are excellent and thus you are of course admitted and recognized, I am sure we will use your wisdom and balance in these halls.

Please be seated and do not hesitate to express your opinions loudly in the name of your landlords and lands for we are in the Diet of the Holy Roman Empire."

After reading the letter from Piemonte von Kuppelweiser smiles warmly to Benedetto Correano and speaks.

”Signore Correano, I shall write aproprieate reply as soon as possible.”

He also replies to delegate from Mainz with wide smile.

“Herr von Bulich,

Indeed I would have to speak for a while in order to fill in Your Grace in the current affairs, thus I advise to read some Diet’s protocols and minutes available here.”


*****

Regarding the Gnovase “Trade and Loans” issue.

*****

“Gentlemen,

First of all do not confuse my voice with that of His Majesty the Greif for I am not his voice but merely the Lord-Chancellor of this renowned assembly. Yet I decided to speak to those who wishes hear.

I completely understand that wealth and well being of many realms in the borders of the Empire depends solely on trade and that trade is what gives them bread. Nevertheless it is my humble opinion that it should never ever collide with our responsibilities to the Holy Mother Church and the Holy Roman Empire.

Signore Gineri admits that Genovese are, let me quote him, “…sinners, because we have put profit first in our lives on many different levels” Well indeed we all sin in this mundane world for we are mere humans in God’s playground. However, we all aim highly, at heavenly clouds, and we all repent our sins. Perhaps it is the time, my good signore Gineri, that Genoa should somehow repent her sins?

Signore Correano points out that loaning monies makes the receiver dependant from the loaner, perhaps it is true but does it make this sin good? And should these vast amounts of gold be spent against Imperial knights fighting for the Holy Land? To me it looks like a vicious circle or rather sort of Devil’s game.

Count de Laurendeau makes an excellent remark here. Were lies Genoa’s loyalty? In distant lands of Nile where heathens practice their dark ways or here in Empire which is the shield of the Holy Mother Church and in fact whole Christendom.

I also hear wisdom and balance in the words of herr Stefan Drechsler yet I cannot agree with it for Genoa is Imperial subject and as Imperial subject should help other Imperials and Church. That is why I dare to say that Genoa’s cannot be neutral should the said expedition happen. The bounds should be obeyed as well as the letter of law, that is the Martial Bull.

As for the crusader knights it is not we to judge them but Almighty God. It is said however that those who fought for regaining the Holy Lands will have their place in heaven.

That is all gentlemen. In the end I would like to announce a joyful news, His Majesty, Joachim of the Greif will arrive in Nurnberg in about two months time.”


After saying that, Lord-Chancellor bows before the imperial throne and whole assembly, and sits down.
 
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Benedetto Correano stands up to speak. It’s rumored that he have had some serious argument with someone last night, now he seems to be very calm though.

“Signore Lord Chancellor, you are right, nothing can make a sin good. But I have to refer to the long term effects again. Let me clear my point of view with a humble example.”

“If a Christian and a heathen fight a duel, is it a sin to let the heathen acquire a good position for a time if in the next moment the Christian can grab the heathen’s neck? Certainly not. But you may say that the example would be more appropirate to the current situation if I have said the following: is it a sin, to let the heathen kill an innocent Christian, if the Christian fighter can grab the heathen’s neck in the next moment? In this case, it’s a sin indeed. But what if there are hundreds of innocents the noble Christian knight should protect? The sin remains a sin, but don’t forget about those hundreds. The knight may be weakened heavily if he doesn’t sacrifice that innocent Christian, and if the knight dies, who would protect the hundreds? That was my example, thank you, noble lords for your patience.”
 

unmerged(17489)

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The representative of Cologne speaks again

"Herr Correano,
I agree with you that it may make the sin more acceptable, that was what the crusaders were doing, risking their lives to save others. However, my problem I have with your example is the following. What if it doesn't work? What if the 100s of christians you speak of dies anyway because of some cunning trick by the heathen? If what you have said is true, the heathen is civilized, and with civilization comes trickyness. Then the christians life has been sacrificed to no use. I agree that loaning money could be useful in the longterm but I want proofs. I do not want to risk that the money is used to annex the Eastern Roman Empire and then the sultan continues to annex christian fellow countries on the Balkan. What proofs does these italians at this court find to make this sin acceptable? If the proofs and odds are good enough Engelbert III may change his opinion and pray to the Lord to give mercy to your souls"
 
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Gineri shakes his head.

"We repent on the final day, not now and not here, I'm afraid. Certain sacrifices need to be made in order to let Genoa survive. Unpopular choices indeed, but nonetheless extremely necesssary. And we know our limitations as humans, and therefore we aim lower than most people in these halls seem to do. We are not after heavenly glory just yet.
If His Imperial Majesty and his Holiness in Rome orders us to stop cooperating with the "heathens", then the matter of the loan is ended... along with our trade I might add. This will be a test of how far His Imperial Majesty will go in crushing Genoa, because whether it is his intention or not, it will become the result of it. And to the gentlemen that hasn't understood how this works, the lord from Cologne, let me explain:
A successful trade cooperation is a matter of honour and integrity when it comes to those friendly to you. When we have in our treaties articles that states that the Bank of Genoa must provide loans to our business partners, then that is how it is, war or not. You do not break a trade treaty just like a snap of your finger. Do you follow me? We have extensive monopolies in these regions, BECAUSE we are willing to help then instead of destroying them, a task which by the way is totally impossible. When defending one's trade in distant lands, the honour of your word is not enough. You must have the privileges on paper.
Furthermore, when you bring the Ottoman Empire to its knees, you weaken one of our greatest trade partners. This is logic for chickens, I'm afraid. Weaken A, with which B is dependant on in trade, then B suffers when A suffers. We have been offered deals from those that think they are going to take Ottoman land, but these offer are to say it mildly, rather thin. I doubt any nation would grant us monopoly as the Ottomans have done. I find the lack of knowledge here concerning Mediterranean trade quite disturbing, but it explains to me why you this so black and white. You do not understand the finer layers in this matter, so out of simplicity you are willing to sacrifice Genoa on the alter of your quest for glory. I'm afraid that tells more about you than us.
And let me just state this: in trade there is no room for religion. That is the luxury of the warriors. We are not warriors, we have tried in the past but failed miserably, and we will never do it again. In that sense we are true Christians, unless you fancy the Old Testament.
So, when we receive a direct order to commit financial suicide from His Imperial Majesty and his Holiness in Rome, we must obey. It will indeed mark a dark day in the history of Genoa, because it will confirm what we have feared for many years."
 

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Stefan Drechsler got to feet.

"Herr Gineri, I respectfully ask if the latest treaty have followed the verdict of the Reichskammergericht, and if the duchy of Genoa have allowed the Imperial Commerce Commision to be involved in its writing?
If not, then you can, with your honour intact, break it, since it was signed on unlawfull ground. And, might I add, it would then be the duty of the Holy Roman Emperor to order you not to loan these money, as the document in which the loan is guarenteed is illegal."
 

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De Laurendeau turns to the Lord Chancellor.

"The choice then seems quite simple. We have to choose between Genoa becoming rich and giving monies to kill thousands of Christians, or Genoa having to look to other ways of making monies and not killing Christians.

In the Court of the Doge of Genoa, less than a month ago, a letter was delivered from someone called "Barak Khan". That man is supposedly a warlord of the mongols hordes. A ruthless man, like most of his kin, apparently. I present to you what was read to the Doge.

I hereby declare all our agreements cancelled. The Golden Horde will no longer trade silk or anyother goods with The Genoese people. I do thank you for the modern navy you have built us though.

My Queen and the Church are asking me what I'm asking you: How long is the Diet going to pretend the world is not at war? As we speak, heathens and mongols are profiting from Genoese trade, creating, as we see with this Barak Khan, larger armies from those profits. We are exchanging spices for weapons, silk for war ships. Making the armies of the Khans and heathens stronger.

And all that because of a few measures of silk, and the glory of the Doge's palace?"
 

unmerged(17489)

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"Gentlemen,
I am getting some perspective now. The genovan ambassador says Genoa will not survive an embargo against the heathens while monsieur de Laurendeau claims they can, is this correct gentlemen?
As I have proclaimed before I suggest herr Gineri shows us how much Genoa benefits from the trade with the heathens and loses from a trade embargo against them. If Genoa loses as much money as herr Gineri says I agree they should be compensated"
 

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Gineri looks to the ceiling of the hall and rolls his eyes. He thinks for himself "God, give me strength! I can not endure this stupidity I am hearing!" He then shakes his head and speaks.

"Gentlemen, I will speak no more of this, for apparantly none of you have paid attention, and none of you will receive reason. My time would be better spent playing chess right now. I have given you many reasons for why Genoa would suffer, but you apparantly are either deaf or refuse to listen. I too have gained some perspective... namely that you care not of the opinion of Genoa, since you have already made up your mind. Things have certainly changed in this Diet..."
 

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De Laurendeau, to the whole Imperial Diet this time:

"Here we have it, most noble Delegates of the Empire. Again we seem to not understand why the palace of the Doge, his personnal fortune and a few measures of silk are more important than arming the heathens to kill fellow Christians.

A few bottles of spices are worth, apparently, arming the navy of the Mongol Khans. A few measures of silk are worth loosing Rhodos.

I wonder what is next. Maybe a few shinny rocks in exchange of ROME!

How far is Genoa ready to go to make assure the downfall of this Empire, to assure the assimilation of Christians, to assure the death of Kings and Emperors?"

The Diet is in turmoil, some applauding De Laurendeau, others accusing him.

"The representative of Cologne asks to be shown how this loan is important to the Genoan economy, and this seems to be too much to ask for.... we do not understand trade. We do not understand relations with the heathens. Funny thing, since I tend to believe the representatives of the Hansa Trade Union most know a thing or two about trade, but NEVER would they arm their own ennemies. And most of our nations have gone on a most Holy Crusade against the heathens, and I thing we know about dealing with them."

He turns to a number of bureaucrats in the back, heads of the Imperial Commerce Commission.

"I am putting forward a motion to force Genoa to either rethink the agreement it has with the heathens or face trade sanctions, including from the Italian Trade Federation and the Hansa Trade Union. I leave to you, most Noble Delegates, the leisure of discussing the motion, so that we can petition our most August Imperial Majesty to ask the Empire to embargo Genoa should it loan monies to the heathens."

He turns to the Lord Chancellor.

"If Genoa wants to arm our ennemies, we will make sure it won't be with OUR monies."
 

Shogun 144

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Mainz speaks

Henreich von Bulich got up and spoke to the Diet:





" After much thought I am now delivering Mainz's postition on the Genoan contaversly. Mainz agrees wholeheartdly with Burgundy about Genoa and Mainz aswell asks the ICC to force Genoa to change her ways or else, and athough this sounds drastic if Genoa wont bend to Imperial sanctions a Imperial War should be declared, if that is allowed."


Henreich pauses before continuing, then he speaks again:


" Mainz also would like to ask the Diet which state here is best to trade with since the Archbishop would like to trade with the different states of the Empire."
 

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Gineri suddenly stops laughing, as the representative from Mainz mentions war.

"What the H...? This is... is outrageous... I... I protest! Genoa will not submit to threats like these. I demand that the Diet punishes the Mainz representative for this... unheard of outburst!"
 
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