Archaeo-Engineers AP reduces module artifact cost

[naphack]

Okay, here is an interesting thought. The main problem with archaeotech is two-fold:
Firstly, relic production generally doesn't support the artifact requirements of equipping large fleets with archaeotech, so due to the supply of artifacts rapidly dropping off it is generally an extremely bad AP outside of dedicated builds and secondly, Archaeoengineers is actually quite the potent AP in low scale situations, early rush strategies or when cheesing the artifact cost by choosing Become the Crisis.

So here is a proposed tweak:
Reduce the stat bonuses the AP provides to archaeotech, while at the same time making it reduce the artifact cost of modules significantly (at least 66%). That way, it becomes more usable for larger fleets and at the same time less exploitable for early archaeotech rushes or Become the Crisis shenanigans, both of which are already fairly potent strategies even without the help of the AP.

From a flavor point of view, it seems more appropriate for a civ that specializes in ancient technology to be able to outfit large fleets with that technology.

 

[Calvax]

I voted this up because I agree that something should be done to reduce archeotech cost, but really I'd rather the devs just did a balance pass. It's insane that archeotech components are literally more than 10x as expensive than other strategic resource components while being worse than them.

 

[NotAYakk]

I mean, the other strategic components are a nominal cost. If you don't have the resource, you just spend some energy to buy it.

There is no feeling of "this is a strategic resource". Even dark matter, I often just set up a 5-30 DM per month purchase ... and forget about it.

And then the value of a supply of that resource is just (market energy cost of the resource) times the output.

With the archeotech rare resource mining, I find a few refinery planets means I can even turn on the ship edicts and forget about them.

 

[XCodes]

I think the solution is a bit inelegant, and I also think that Archaeo-Engineers should be a valid AP to leave off a build, so I don't think that making Archaeo-Engineers itself scale the relic cost is a great idea, or at least to not make it such a large bonus that requires MA costs to be balanced around it. Something more like -20% sounds better, particularly since it's going to stack additively with things like Retired Fleet Admiral.

Instead, there are two things that could be done:

1) Buff the orbital station resource techs. 10% per tech is piss-poor. The only reason I ever research any of them is so I can build Nebula Refineries. They should be 20% per tech level at a minimum, especially considering the fact that Research deposits are rarely large enough to even matter unless they're over a planet that can host a Habitat. This will also naturally increase Relic income and scalability.

2) Habitats built over planets with MA deposits get special Archaeology Habitats instead of Research Habitats, which have Archaeo-engineer jobs instead of Researchers, and yes, they produce MA's just like they would as if they were on a Relic World.

 

[nightraven1901]

Okay, here is an interesting thought. The main problem with archaeotech is two-fold:
Firstly, relic production generally doesn't support the artifact requirements of equipping large fleets with archaeotech, so due to the supply of artifacts rapidly dropping off it is generally an extremely bad AP outside of dedicated builds and secondly, Archaeoengineers is actually quite the potent AP in low scale situations, early rush strategies or when cheesing the artifact cost by choosing Become the Crisis.

So here is a proposed tweak:
Reduce the stat bonuses the AP provides to archaeotech, while at the same time making it reduce the artifact cost of modules significantly (at least 66%). That way, it becomes more usable for larger fleets and at the same time less exploitable for early archaeotech rushes or Become the Crisis shenanigans, both of which are already fairly potent strategies even without the help of the AP.

From a flavor point of view, it seems more appropriate for a civ that specializes in ancient technology to be able to outfit large fleets with that technology.

So, I'm running a massive empire with pretty much every minor artifact deposit in the galaxy under my control. I'm still having trouble funding fleet construction. And I ***HATE*** that these ultra-rare, irreplaceable resources are making components that are just inferior to counterparts I got elsewhere. They should be top-of-the-line, bar none. Especially if you take archaeoengineers. I have a huge thread (visible here) of new tech, building and other now even a new tradition tree idea relating to this to try to redress the balance and it needs some serious tweaking.

For most empires, the income you get wouldn't outfit an escort force. And that escort force would be worse than an average one by late-game anyway. What's the point? All this dev-work for a vestigial mess. I disagree on reducing the damage buff that archaeoengineering gives- I actually want to increase it- and block the archaeoengineer techs unless you took the perk to address the concerns from some others regarding tech tree bloating. You can still steal them, anyway. But I suggest a broad 30% base damage increase, and a myriad of different weapons, but binding those weapons to as few techs as possible to alleviate tech tree bloat. I further think that simply increasing the amount of artifacts you get from deposits by 100-200% is a sound plan, as most empires will only have one or two sources in their borders. Further, the storage limit must be increased with silos, or at worst, another building type, again unlocked through archaeoengineering. I have wasted so many artifacts. I have further proposed around a half-dozen ways of getting artifacts other than the deposits; increasing the yield the caravaneer slots pays out in artifacts from 1-5 to 1-1000 and increasing their drop frequency, several building types, some of which wouldn't require any research to produce and could be built from game start if the devs wanted to allow it, and I think now I'm pondering the matter the Fallen Empires worlds should universally yield artifact deposits, with the capitol worlds yielding a great many.

How do you cheese the artifacts with Become the Crisis?​

 

[NotAYakk]

So, I'm running a massive empire with pretty much every minor artifact deposit in the galaxy under my control. I'm still having trouble funding fleet construction. And I ***HATE*** that these ultra-rare, irreplaceable resources are making components that are just inferior to counterparts I got elsewhere. They should be top-of-the-line, bar none. Especially if you take archaeoengineers. I have a huge thread (visible here) of new tech, building and other now even a new tradition tree idea relating to this to try to redress the balance and it needs some serious tweaking.

For most empires, the income you get wouldn't outfit an escort force. And that escort force would be worse than an average one by late-game anyway. What's the point? All this dev-work for a vestigial mess. I disagree on reducing the damage buff that archaeoengineering gives- I actually want to increase it- and block the archaeoengineer techs unless you took the perk to address the concerns from some others regarding tech tree bloating. You can still steal them, anyway. But I suggest a broad 30% base damage increase, and a myriad of different weapons, but binding those weapons to as few techs as possible to alleviate tech tree bloat. I further think that simply increasing the amount of artifacts you get from deposits by 100-200% is a sound plan, as most empires will only have one or two sources in their borders. Further, the storage limit must be increased with silos, or at worst, another building type, again unlocked through archaeoengineering. I have wasted so many artifacts. I have further proposed around a half-dozen ways of getting artifacts other than the deposits; increasing the yield the caravaneer slots pays out in artifacts from 1-5 to 1-1000 and increasing their drop frequency, several building types, some of which wouldn't require any research to produce and could be built from game start if the devs wanted to allow it, and I think now I'm pondering the matter the Fallen Empires worlds should universally yield artifact deposits, with the capitol worlds yielding a great many.

How do you cheese the artifacts with Become the Crisis?​

Crisis ship costs are fixed and minerals regardless of components.

 

[nightraven1901]

Crisis ship costs are fixed and minerals regardless of components.

loool. Thank-you,