Aquatic races

[Primarch Victus]

Olaf Stapledon describes some spacefaring aquatic lifeforms in his book "Star Maker". One of the most successful galactic civilzations was founded by a symbiotic partnership of highly intelligent sentient fish and extremely dexterous and adaptable crab-like amphibians Stapledon called "arachnoids".

These arachnoids rode on the backs of the gentle and wise fish giants, profiting from their fierce intelligence and mobility in water. In turn they helped the fish giants with manual labor that was impossible to do for the fish for lack of hands. The arachnoids eventually learned to leave the water entirely (both species lived on an ocean world with very little dry land in the form of archipelagos) where they built a industrial economy based on fire and metallurgy. This caused a temporary division between the two species (including war) but eventually they found back to each other rediscovering the great advantages of simbiosis over opposition.

They eventually conquered the stars together. The arachnoids providing industry and engineering and the fish giants science and philosophy.

Now that is an idea that makes perfect sense!

 

[Robrecht]

You need fire to create technology in first place -- and using fire is impossible underwater, so any aquatic species never will go beyond of the stone age tech. Period.

Unperiod. You are wrong on so many different details here.

1. You don't need actual fire for most of the things we do with it, just heat. Hence why we have electric and chemical heating now that uses absolutely no fire whatsoever to achieve many of the things we used to use fire for, except with much less waste and much more safely. Any sufficiently exothermic process will do anything fire does, even underwater.
   
2. Fire underwater is not actually impossible at all. There are plenty of oxygenating and oxidizing compounds that allow for fire to burn underwater by providing the oxygen required themselves rather than requiring it to be present as an atmospheric gas.
3. There's plenty of technological advancements that can be made without any fire or alternative heat source.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Unperiod. You are wrong on so many different details here.

1. You don't need actual fire for most of the things we do with it, just heat. Hence why we have electric and chemical heating now that uses absolutely no fire whatsoever to achieve many of the things we used to use fire for, except with much less waste and much more safely. Any sufficiently exothermic process will do anything fire does, even underwater.
   
2. Fire underwater is not actually impossible at all. There are plenty of oxygenating and oxidizing compounds that allow for fire to burn underwater by providing the oxygen required themselves rather than requiring it to be present as an atmospheric gas.
3. There's plenty of technological advancements that can be made without any fire or alternative heat source.

1. And heat is still pretty badly compromised by the water, wich is excelent coolant. Chemical heating is a solution, try to invent it however when you have nothing but a stoneage tools. Under water, you would not be able to make hydrochloric acid, f.e. Many of those substances need isolated enviromnent to be produced or stored, or be protected from watter when mixing.
2. Again, you are right. But for first - try to invent that without advaced chemistry, underwater. And second - try to invent something you most likely never ever observed for all your life.
3. Almoust all of them are stone-age to medieval era advacements. To be space-faring, you need industrial level.

 

[Drowe]

One thing to also keep in mind is that any Aquatic species that decides to explore an utilize the above-surface parts of it's home world will have an automatic advantage in moving on to explore space afterwards, since most the of the technology required for a fully aquatic species to survive on dry land can be carried over directly to surviving in space.

As for the weight of carrying water into orbit... Erhm, Are people who say this under the impression that astronauts wear stillsuits or just drink their own urine? WE, human beings, need to carry lots of water into orbit too and we manage just fine.

Actually, that's exactly what they do, it gets filtered first of course, but the cost of moving large amounts of water into space is enormous.

While it isn't impossible for an aquatic species to develop sentience and start to use tools, advanced technology can not be developed under water, the best they could possibly achieve in such an environment, and I'm being very generous here, is mechanical. The leap to higher technologies requires electricity, which simply isn't possible under water, not because it couldn't be produced, but because water is a relatively good conductor if at least some trace elements are in it (there is a reason why electrical equipment breaks if it gets wet)

But that's not the real issue, unless they can breath gas, they will never be able to leave the planet. The reason why rockets are so big is because they need to carry all the fuel they need with them. 80-90% of the mass at launch is fuel. The density of air is around 1.2 kg per cubic meter, the density of water is 1000kg per cubic meter. That means, a rocket where all air is replaced by water would have several hundred times as much mass, requiring a lot more fuel.

A game may forgo realism if it serves gameplay, but I don't see the benefit of doing so. They could just have become amphibious and able to breath gas as well as water. They can still have underwater cities and all that, but their spaceships are filled with air.

 

[Robrecht]

1. And heat is still pretty badly compromised by the water, wich is excelent coolant.

So is air, hence the invention of the oven and forge and other enclosed heat chambers for nearly every application that need consistent heat. (pro-tip: We use naked flame for exactly one thing: Light).

2. Again, you are right. But for first - try to invent that without advaced chemistry, underwater. And second - try to invent something you most likely never ever observed for all your life.

First: There are several naturally occuring ores that, if mixed and given some initial heat (for instance from friction), will happily go exothermic underwater (both with and without oxidation i.e. fire)
Second: What? You mean like pretty much half of all inventions?

3. Almoust all of them are stone-age to medieval era advacements. To be space-faring, you need industrial level.

You need a heck of a lot more than industrial level to be space-faring.

The problem here is that all of the people who go 'it's impossible!' assume an aquatic species who live at the deepest bottom of an earth-like sea with earth-like plants and earth-like animals.

It's entirely possible for the hypothetical planet this hypothetical species evolved on to have, for instance, a type of plant that concentrates nodules of pure magnesium inside its leaves to discourage herbivores from eating it, which this aquatic species then learned to cultivate and safely harvest (Hey! Agriculture, a whole field of technology that requires little to no fire at all) and use as their initial source of heat/fire/fuel for metalworking and other applications until their technology advances enough for them to find other sources of fuel that work underwater.

Or, for that matter, it's possible for them to have evolved and originally lived in a rather more shallow part of the sea where the surface is only a fifteen minute swim upwards and they harvest atmosphere (initially in animal skins and later in more advanced vessels) they can't actually breathe for all sorts of applications in much the same way we harvest water we can't breathe either for applications. They may even use actual fire by building ovens and forges on rafts (made of non-combustible materials), filing them with phosphorus (which doesn't burn underwater, but ignites on contact with air) and then raising them into the atmosphere to dry and cook and then sinking them back into the water once they're done, in a sort of invertended version of how humans in some areas used to bury clay vessels filled with food around the mouths of active volcanoes to cook food (which is where the whole 'throwing food (and people) into the mouth of the volcano to appease the volcano god' stereotype comes from).

Or, you know, come to think of it, they could use the hydrothermal vents already mentioned in this thread several times, for their initial heating needs.

 

[Ultimuh]

People tend to forget that this game isn't very realistic to begin with.
True that the devs have attempted some realism, but a lot of it isn't.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

So is air, hence the invention of the oven and forge and other enclosed heat chambers for nearly every application that need consistent heat. (pro-tip: We use naked flame for exactly one thing: Light).

And warmth. And harding wood. And hunting. And cooking. And fucktone of other things if my education is corect Also density off watter is much highter than air, co its fuck up the forging much more than air.

First: There are several naturally occuring ores that, if mixed and given some initial heat (for instance from friction), will happily go exothermic underwater (both with and without oxidation i.e. fire)
Second: What? You mean like pretty much half of all inventions?

Well, I can only put trust in your word that those ores are that easily to get, I am no expert on geology and oceanology. Also, those "half" inventions found only with mathematical equations are mostly post-renesance stuff. Before, it was mostly observations. I will gladly see how the aquatic sencient will find out fire just with his basic mathematics and chemistry.

You need a heck of a lot more than industrial level to be space-faring.

When they hit that level, I dont see any thing that can hold them from going atomic and space age. At that point they will inevitably reach the level that will let them working in dry enviroment.

The problem here is that all of the people who go 'it's impossible!' assume an aquatic species who live at the deepest bottom of an earth-like sea with earth-like plants and earth-like animals.

Lets be honest - its hightly implausible. The assumptions made on Earth example is the most scientific one, becouse its the only example we know. Asuming we are not some exceptional case in universal scale, we can say that probability of evolving inteligence is a times smaller than mass extinction event, and the all strong points for evolving space-faring civilisation screams that terestrials are more plausible to evolve as civilisation by a magnitudes. Building pyramids are infinitely easier than evolving into industrial age in aquatic environment, yet still there are guys who believe that putting stones one on another need some "alien intervention". I can think some examples how that can be done, but those are so fridge scenarios (your magnesium plants for example) that I put them into "unbelievable" category. Syncretic cooperation of aquatics and amphibious sencients are the most probable of those (in sencience isnt really hard luck possibility and there is actualy a sufficient probability of evolving two so-different sencients at one time - not like human and neanderthal human f.e.).

 

[Drowe]

So is air, hence the invention of the oven and forge and other enclosed heat chambers for nearly every application that need consistent heat. (pro-tip: We use naked flame for exactly one thing: Light).

Not really, air is actually a terrible coolant, and the only reason we use it anyway is because it is still good enough for everyday use. We use naked flame for heating, naked flame is also what powers the combustion engine. Coal, Gas and Oil powerplants use naked flame, or more precisely the heat generated by those flames, to produce electricity.

 

[locustgate]

That's DLC material!!

Subteranian/Submarine DLC would be awesome you could build underground and underwater, both with a large defense bonus.

 

[Primarch Victus]

1. And heat is still pretty badly compromised by the water, wich is excelent coolant. Chemical heating is a solution, try to invent it however when you have nothing but a stoneage tools. Under water, you would not be able to make hydrochloric acid, f.e. Many of those substances need isolated enviromnent to be produced or stored, or be protected from watter when mixing.
2. Again, you are right. But for first - try to invent that without advaced chemistry, underwater. And second - try to invent something you most likely never ever observed for all your life.
3. Almoust all of them are stone-age to medieval era advacements. To be space-faring, you need industrial level.

Those are exactly my thoughts about the matter.

 

[corny.1234]

Subteranian/Submarine DLC would be awesome you could build underground and underwater, both with a large defense bonus.

I wrote this exactly 1 year ago

 

[Robrecht]

Not really, air is actually a terrible coolant, and the only reason we use it anyway is because it is still good enough for everyday use. We use naked flame for heating, naked flame is also what powers the combustion engine. Coal, Gas and Oil powerplants use naked flame, or more precisely the heat generated by those flames, to produce electricity.

Water and air both have differing coolant properties. Water is able to absorb a lot more heat than air, which means that cold, flowing water is a lot better at extracting heat from something than air is.... But water also loses heat a lot slower than air, which means it's a terrible coolant once it's already warm, especially if it doesn't have air around it to evaporate into. This is why we use water as both a coolant and as a heater (in central heating, for instance, where water's slow heat release allows us to heat a room far more consistently and with greater fuel efficiency than hot air). An oven that contains water and is heated to a given temperature is far more efficient than one that contains air (see: a pressure cooker. And before anyone goes 'oh, but you need metal to make a pressure cooker!': That's only true for us because we don't live underwater. The added pressure of an underwater environment makes pressure cooking viable with less strong containers. See: boiling a whole egg vs. air-heating a whole egg. The former results in a delicious boiled egg, the latter results in an exploding egg, due to pressure differences).

Also, for reference: A naked flame is a flame that is completely unprotected (i.e. a candle). We use covered flames for most of our uses of fire (be it ovens, forges, etc...) specifically because airflow IS a pretty good coolant (which is why a candle goes out when you blow on it) and leaving the flame unprotected is a good way to lose a lot of useful heat. An internal combustion engine or the turbines in powerplant (which work by heating water, by the way, just saying) are decidedly not naked flames, they're contained.

The fact of the matter is that an Aquatic species wouldn't even need to invent a way to make fires to reach the Iron Age (or more accurately the Naval Brass age). All they need is to set up a forge around a hydrothermal vent to capture enough heat to forge the Copper, Zinc and Nickel that are already very common around said vents into water-resistant brass (which requires fairly low temperatures to make any way) and, presto, metal tools.

 

[Primarch Victus]

Awwww right! like if was so easy to survive to the heat of a hydrothermal vent! correct me if I'm wrong, but hydrothermal vents only exists in the deepest parts of ocean, right? how did you can explain that a sencient species that evolve in such ambient would be able or even willing to go to the surface waters and build a space-faring civilization?

 

[Brent15]

I understand that design choices have to be made, but I think aquatics should have been added long before plantoids and fungoids. Needless to say, I'm anxious for an Aquatic DLC!

 

[Daphne24]

I am a bit confused. I assumed the species with tentacles are the squid/octopus analogies in the game. I presume they were put in the game due to the popularity of H.P Lovecraft's stories (fungoids as well). I also think one of the reptiles looks like a frog.

 

[Terricola69]

Under the water they can take advantage of the heat that the submarine magma fires.

But in that case, i can imagine wars for the control of founts of heat. Or in their industrial phase, ecologist warning about not open too the ground (for magma) because the water can take too heat and that can lead them to ecologist disaster (global warming).

Improbable but not impossible xd.

 

[Robrecht]

Awwww right! like if was so easy to survive to the heat of a hydrothermal vent! correct me if I'm wrong, but hydrothermal vents only exists in the deepest parts of ocean, right? how did you can explain that a sencient species that evolve in such ambient would be able or even willing to go to the surface waters and build a space-faring civilization?

I don't have to give a detailed explanation of how an aquatic species would go all the way from the stone age to space while explaining every challenge they might face and how they'd overcome it. All I have to when you say 'It's impossible for Aquatics to ever get beyond the Stone Age!' is give one plausible way in which they could advance beyond that and then the fact that they have the ability to advance technologically means they have the toolset required to eventually get into space.

Also, since you asked, you're wrong about hydrothermal vents existing only in the deepest part of the ocean. That's Black Geysers. Hydrothermal vents are relatively near the surface in places like Japan and Hawaii and other volcanic islands.

Also remember: It's possible for things to float on water and to be buoyant within water. There's no guarantee that an aquatic species would even need to go near land to launch a rocket, they can just load up the rocket all the way at the sea bottom and float the entire launch platform to the surface fully loaded as part of their normal launch procedure. Heck, aquatic species would probably be so well-versed in buoyancy that they could float an entire spaceship launch platform into the upper atmosphere on rigid air balloons and get around the issue of 'water is heavy' that way or something. (Plus you know our issue with transporting water to space is that it's expensive, not that we can't do it... Our priorities on that might be different if water, rather than air, was the stuff we needed to be in to not die)

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

The fact of the matter is that an Aquatic species wouldn't even need to invent a way to make fires to reach the Iron Age (or more accurately the Naval Brass age). All they need is to set up a forge around a hydrothermal vent to capture enough heat to forge the Copper, Zinc and Nickel that are already very common around said vents into water-resistant brass (which requires fairly low temperatures to make any way) and, presto, metal tools.

underwater hand-work forging with vulcano use is a terrible method of making metal tools, wich is obvious for anyone who knows how the process of forging looks like, not even talking about glass.
So, your so-called "plausible" way is a fridge example too.

 

[Me_]

A spacefaring aquatic race is a bit too far in the impossible region. Even if they mastered tools underwater, they would have to go to land to develop spaceflight. You do not build rockets underwater. It's waaay too hard. Any "aquatic" race would really have to be at least amphibious. Or be psychic and have land-walking slaves.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

A spacefaring aquatic race is a bit too far in the impossible region. Even if they mastered tools underwater, they would have to go to land to develop spaceflight. You do not build rockets underwater. It's waaay too hard. Any "aquatic" race would really have to be at least amphibious. Or be psychic and have land-walking slaves.

Psychics are modern age wizards. In real-life theory crafting we remove them from equation. Also, using unmened probes in orbit also counts as space-faring. Once they will be able to build rockets - they are capable of space flights. But the problems are reaching that level.