Aquatic races

[Cruxador]

Is there any reason you couldn't just consider any race from an ocean world to be aquatic? They'd be most at home in the oceans, but also enjoy continental worlds with their significant amount of water and uhh I guess they'd melt down some heated prime real estate from glaciers on arctic worlds. It's kinda wonky, but to be honest the whole habitability wheel is weird if you think about it too much.

If you think about it at all, really. I imagine it'll be first on the chopping block for overhaul DLC, when that enters the realm of possibility in a year or two.

Adding aquatic races and the game mechanics for how can they use spaceships, colonize other worlds, ground assault other plants (and how others can attack them)
sound like a lot for work for very little in return for the dev team.
adding aquatic races without these game mechanics will look cheap, just a cosmetic add on with no explanation.

I imagine the actual situation would be somewhere in between full implementation and cosmetic only.

also, if you can add aquatic races what about lifeforms from toxic plants? gas giant?

Seems pretty likely to me.

 

[Alexander Seil]

What else would you use for all kinds of machinery? And what kind of engines would you later use, when you can't have steam, electrical or combustion engines? Again: there aren't just some materials or elements that we don't know that they could use. We know ALL the elements and what they do. Corals are no substitute for a material that is stronger and/or more elastic and that can be freely cast or forged.

Development of metalworking depends on a primitive stone-age civilization (no particular problem with that under the sea - on Earth they could even have a Coral Age!) discovering natural metal outcroppings. On Earth, iron gets oxidized in the oxygen-rich atmosphere, but I don't know enough chemistry to know what would happen in a sulfur-rich environment (where life could be using sulfur for oxidation rather than oxygen); one could imagine there is a seawater composition that would allow a jump straight from coral tools to iron tools without a copper/bronze stage inbetween.

 

[Wollont]

What else would you use for all kinds of machinery? And what kind of engines would you later use, when you can't have steam, electrical or combustion engines? Again: there aren't just some materials or elements that we don't know that they could use. We know ALL the elements and what they do. Corals are no substitute for a material that is stronger and/or more elastic and that can be freely cast or forged.

Machinery isn't the only way. Esoterics aside, noone forbids all the complicated stuff to be performed inside their bodies. As for wonderful materials, all of Mendeleev's table isn't necessary too, see organic chemistry.

 

[Cynwulf]

I think that overestimates the possibilities. An "upcoming" species would have to work with similar materials that humanity also used. There are no more elements available that we don't have on earth as well. Maybe they will have more of some, less of others, but they would also need stuff like metal work, a form of energy source like coal (the easiest to get and handle for an early industrial civilization) and so on.

The fire was absolutely crucial for our development and I don't see any species to develop a modern society without it, let alone get into space. There is just NO substitution for it. That doesn't mean there couldn't be intelligent life on an ocean world but intelligent life doesn't have to develop in a modern society like we have. There are areas in the world that probably wouldn't have never changed out of their tribal life style if their culture wouldn't have been infringed upon by Western civilization. We also saw numerous civilizations that pretty much stagnated even if they reached a certain level and would have never developed beyond that without influences from outside. The believe that evolution AND our civilization will inevitably develop further and further doesn't hold up. There has to be very specific circumstances for both the development of intelligent live and the development of a modern society to happen.

There are substitutions for fire especially in an aquatic environment....Electrochemistry for one. An aquatic species could develop metallurgy with it especially in salt water.

 

[Tennismellon]

Something related and very interesting that I found online. There's a long and thorough write up just a bit down the page on the evolution of aquatic species and their possible technological development.

http://worldbuilding.stackexchange....-underwater-living-organism-create-technology

 

[Alexander Seil]

Something related and very interesting that I found online. There's a long and thorough write up just a bit down the page on the evolution of aquatic species and their possible technological development.

http://worldbuilding.stackexchange....-underwater-living-organism-create-technology

/thread

 

[KonradKurze202]

What else would you use for all kinds of machinery? And what kind of engines would you later use, when you can't have steam, electrical or combustion engines? Again: there aren't just some materials or elements that we don't know that they could use. We know ALL the elements and what they do. Corals are no substitute for a material that is stronger and/or more elastic and that can be freely cast or forged.

We know Telekinetic powers are in the game (require research), so a Telekinetic sea monster could bend metal into shape without fire. Space magic! Alternately there are acids and other methods (cold forging of aluminum for instance). It isn't impossible, just strange and different from our methods.

 

[PANGI]

More difficult means that they'll be edged out by a terrestrial creature, though.

If there is any...

 

[GEoE]

Olaf Stapledon describes some spacefaring aquatic lifeforms in his book "Star Maker". One of the most successful galactic civilzations was founded by a symbiotic partnership of highly intelligent sentient fish and extremely dexterous and adaptable crab-like amphibians Stapledon called "arachnoids".

These arachnoids rode on the backs of the gentle and wise fish giants, profiting from their fierce intelligence and mobility in water. In turn they helped the fish giants with manual labor that was impossible to do for the fish for lack of hands. The arachnoids eventually learned to leave the water entirely (both species lived on an ocean world with very little dry land in the form of archipelagos) where they built a industrial economy based on fire and metallurgy. This caused a temporary division between the two species (including war) but eventually they found back to each other rediscovering the great advantages of simbiosis over opposition.

They eventually conquered the stars together. The arachnoids providing industry and engineering and the fish giants science and philosophy.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Well, as prudent people say, we are the only case of space-faring species we know, and we didn't even go very far. It's entirely possible that non-aquatic space travelling species are the exception. People who say that it's harder for an aquatic species to reach space are unimaginative or anthropo-centrists - water environements doesn't even need to be the same as what we have on earth. We couldn't even imagine some kinds of aquatic monkeys in aquatic forests and steppes. I won't write a book here, but the sacred "stone tools -> fire -> wheel" (or its variants) is not necessary. And you don't even need to imagine complex organic technologies - fire can be replaced by various chemical reactions, for example.

People who say that using common sense is anthropocentric are insanely arrogant. The usual "blablabla organic technology blablabla vulcanoes blablabla chemical reactions" without explaining how they see that working is questionable answer at best. The problem with going industrial stuff isnt inability to use fire alone. Its the difficulty to make isolated environment to produce advanced technology and do advanced research. Water is really horrible area to do chemistry for example. Its hyper-reactive, it posses high pressure, it is difficult to control temperature there because of density and cooling factor. Also, byoancy and fluid resistance are problems here. Oh, did I mention that its pretty awfull environment for electronics too? Terrestrial and amphibious creatures can always control any of those factors, not so the aquatics. About organic tools - fine. You can do some with wood, shells and corals and whatever. You can use some living creatures as a domesticated tools. That wont let you go industrial. Without isolated environment you will never go industrial. There is a point when you will need it to operate in dry environment, theres no escape. However you analyse it, the chances of going space-faring without intervention from other non-aquatic "helpers" are extremelly unlikely. You say I am unimaginative? I say you watch too much Star Wars for certain.

Olaf Stapledon describes some spacefaring aquatic lifeforms in his book "Star Maker". One of the most successful galactic civilzations was founded by a symbiotic partnership of highly intelligent sentient fish and extremely dexterous and adaptable crab-like amphibians Stapledon called "arachnoids".

These arachnoids rode on the backs of the gentle and wise fish giants, profiting from their fierce intelligence and mobility in water. In turn they helped the fish giants with manual labor that was impossible to do for the fish for lack of hands. The arachnoids eventually learned to leave the water entirely (both species lived on an ocean world with very little dry land in the form of archipelagos) where they built a industrial economy based on fire and metallurgy. This caused a temporary division between the two species (including war) but eventually they found back to each other rediscovering the great advantages of simbiosis over opposition.

They eventually conquered the stars together. The arachnoids providing industry and engineering and the fish giants science and philosophy.

This is actually pretty good example when we can have aquatic industrial civilisation. However, its the syncretic evolution case, so we need here both sencient organisms cooperating in that endevour, at last one beeing amphibious.


That beeing said, my stance is

So, as usual, it's better to trust the rule of cool than the rule of NOT-PSEUDO-realism.

because its, well, cool.

 

[GEoE]

This is actually pretty good example when we can have aquatic industrial civilisation. However, its the syncretic evolution case, so we need here both sencient organisms cooperating in that endevour, at last one beeing amphibious.

True. Nevertheless I would still count them as aquatic and it's a feasible aproach. I could imagine such a simbiotic "binary species" in the game. With double the number of traits and some drawbacks to counter that advantage.

The other aquatic civilization Stapledon described in detail was a race auf nautilus-like, oceanic molluscoids. They developed sentience under water on a world completely covered by ocean with no land whatsoever. As they evolved they gradually moved closer to the surface, their hard outer shells evolving into streamlined, buoyant forms. To propel themselves they developed large, organic "sails", eventually becoming some sort of living ships.

As their society became more complex, they began buliding huge, floating cities with a flourishing economy. I seem to recall that they never managed that last step to leave their homeworld because they fell victim to some global catastrophy, but that's just because the author wanted it to be that way...

I like to imagine living ships modifying themselves through technology to the point of becoming living spaceships. (playable space-amoeba anyone?)

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Something related and very interesting that I found online. There's a long and thorough write up just a bit down the page on the evolution of aquatic species and their possible technological development.

http://worldbuilding.stackexchange....-underwater-living-organism-create-technology

I almoust stopped reading when I found a guy, who wrote that mesoamericans didnt use metal tools and only smelted metal "for decorations". That's complete bullshit, ofc. Copper tools like needles and knives were found in Amapa, for example. Later when I read that guy wrote that fire was important for humans only becouse of cooking and light, I almoust killed myself with facepalm. Some of his ideas and notions are revelant, thou, so I dont regret reading that.

 

[bronze Void poison]

A portrate pack could work.

 

[Slynx]

space fishes in a space aquarium living on the ice or desert world?
definitely will buy!

 

[Meneliki]

Wiz addressed this on stream, he doesn't seem keen on the idea.

Though, we already do have a fish portrait... Starfish! So if they're legit.. why not more fish portraits?

 

[Robrecht]

One thing to also keep in mind is that any Aquatic species that decides to explore an utilize the above-surface parts of it's home world will have an automatic advantage in moving on to explore space afterwards, since most the of the technology required for a fully aquatic species to survive on dry land can be carried over directly to surviving in space.

As for the weight of carrying water into orbit... Erhm, Are people who say this under the impression that astronauts wear stillsuits or just drink their own urine? WE, human beings, need to carry lots of water into orbit too and we manage just fine.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

One thing to also keep in mind is that any Aquatic species that decides to explore an utilize the above-surface parts of it's home world will have an automatic advantage in moving on to explore space afterwards, since most the of the technology required for a fully aquatic species to survive on dry land can be carried over directly to surviving in space.

As for the weight of carrying water into orbit... Erhm, Are people who say this under the impression that astronauts wear stillsuits or just drink their own urine? WE, human beings, need to carry lots of water into orbit too and we manage just fine.

If they menage with going full industrial, the space exploration is inevitable. Even if its only unmened probes, it still does count.

 

[Primarch Victus]

Although I am aware that there is a mollusc class of species in the game, as well as a mammal that is described to have inhabited the seas for some of it's history, both of these only appear to be former aquatic races that eventually immigrated onto land. So far, there don't seem to be any proper sea-inhabiting races.

There are some problems and questions on how a fully aquatic race could develop all the technology needed for space-travel, but Stellaris doesn't claim to be 100% realistic, and a marine spacefaring race doesn't seem much less likely than FTL travel being developed by several unconnected species within a small timeframe in the same galaxy(at least to me).

These aquatic species would, however, obviously require some mechanics to be changed/adjusted for them(e.g. adding a different class of tiles for submarine environments, changing some planetary invasion costs, etc.), so I see why they wouldn't be in the base game(due to time constraints). However, I feel that an eventual DLC for this would be high on the interest-lists of many people. Post your thoughts on the topic here, as well as any suggestions in regards to the mechanics themselves for these races.

What is wrong with being an amphibian species or a former aquatic species?! honestly, using such species is far more realistic than using species that are 100% aquatic but can build ships because they have psionic powers (like the telekinesis of the Liir in Sword of the Stars) or because they have some fancy organic tech. You need fire to create technology in first place -- and using fire is impossible underwater, so any aquatic species never will go beyond of the stone age tech. Period. I'm tired of such dumb sci-fi tropes like aquatic aliens using advanced tech when both the good old science and logic says that such thing is impossible.

There is no reason an aquatic species which formed an advanced civilization wouldn't be able to reach the stars. However it would have been a very different experience then our own. Maybe relying on organic technologies more then inorganic.

There are many plausible mechanisms by which an aquatic intelligence can accumulate energy from natural sources, practice the chemistry needed to transform, concentrate, and control it. Therefore the answer is yes: an aquatic civilization could conduct space travel.

I think there road to space travel would be a longer one but once there i think they would make the adjustment to space travel easier then we would have. It certainly would make things easier for them if they lived on a planet with lower gravity then our own considering space vessels filled with liquid would be substantially heavier then our own. Of course initially they might go into space in space suites with there environment within having to replenish what they breath periodically.

Organic tech is not something you can find under a stone! it needs to be build/grow. And that only is possible when you have a advanced knowledge in genetics, biochemistry, bioengineering, etc. And that is not possible if you live in a stone age civilization.

 

[Primarch Victus]

Considering there is Uplift in this game.. In the Uplift series of books by David Brin Dolphins pilot starships. They were uplifted by Humans, and have mechanical devices to enable them to function on dry land. Just offering that as a possibility.

Now that makes far more sense than an aquatic species creating tech from nothing and without any help from outside.

 

[Primarch Victus]

In Star Wars the Mon Calamari are mostly aquatics, and they are known for been some of the best shipbuilders in the galaxy, and have probably the best shield systems. There are some others races in that "universe" that are mostly aquatic and travel in space with tranquility... but they not build some of the best battle cruisers in the galaxy like the calamari.

As some others say, yes, is difficult that aquatic civilizations jumps into space, but from a Stallaris point of view, we start from the point of wich our aquatics beings have already surpassed the limitation of the atmosphere and early FTL travel... so, why not have some Sharks, Dolphins or Killer Whales as phenotypes? (of course the Whales and Dolphins added as mammals... )

The Mon Calamari and the Kaminoans are both amphibious, once they can breath both air and underwater. But a truly underwater civilization never would be able to progress beyond of the stone age tech, not matter the universe.