April 28th BETA: Culture of capital province

Lucius Sulla · May 3, 2005

TKaz84 said:
(finishing up a course on middle eastern history which includes Al-Andalus)

This actually sounds fairly accurate historically speaking. Arabic/Andalusian culture was very seductive in this time period, and there are many instances of Christians invading the area, conquering it, and promptly "going native". And since most of the scientific, literary, and cultural developments at this time were made by Arabs, having all those Arabic children may not be such a bad thing

Uh... 'going native'??? :wacko: :wacko:

I think I knew a bit about Spanish medieval history... and I don't know a single instance this happened in the reconquista process.

Another whole different thing would have been the initial invasion, where many visigoth, latin-iberian families did convert culturally (noticeably the Banu Qasi family)... But in the period we are talking about (1066+) this never ever happened, to my knowledge.

If anything, I would say Capital selection is flawed. The center of power, or meeting choice for the court of the king was never in a recently conquered area. For instance, let's take a view at the Kingdom of Aragon. When you conquer Valencia, your capital moves there... but this is not just right. The neuralgical center of the kingdom (during the reign of the house of Barcelona), stayed in Barcelona, and had not the possibility to move to Valencia until the XIV century (where the place was already converted, and quite in the way to be fully culturally assimilated).

I think that what could really be done is to change the process of capital selection, since currently capital placement has such effects onto this important series of events. Let's see what you think of this proposal:

Byakhiam... please do tell me how would you feel about this...

Capital placement would be decided in this top to bottom priorities rules:

=================================

1A. Capital will be placed in the richest province of a ruler's demesne that has same religion AND same culture than the ruler AND forms part of the ruler's main tittle lands.

2A. If no province can fulfil rule number 1A, capital will be placed in the richest province of a ruler's demesne that has same religion OR same culture than the ruler AND forms part of the ruler's main tittle lands.

3A. If no province can fulfil rule number 1A&2A, then capital will be placed in the richest province of the ruler's demesne AND forms part of the ruler's main tittle lands.

1B. If ruler does not own any province of his main tittle, capital will be placed in the richest province of a ruler's demesne that has same religion AND same culture than the ruler.

2B. If no province can fulfil rule number 1B, capital will be placed in the richest province of a ruler's demesne that has same religion OR same culture than the ruler.

3B. If no province can fulfil rule number 1B&2B, then capital will be placed in the richest province of the ruler's demesne.

=================================

Let's picture some situations and their possible ressults.

Provinces are defined by:

(Religion - Culture - Income - MT/Main Tittle or NMT/Not Main Tittle).

A pair of cases:

Case I (historical): King Jaume of Aragon has Barcelona (Catholic-Catalan-Average-MT) and Valencia (Muslim-Arab-Rich-MT) in his demesne.

Ressult I: Capital will stay in Barcelona until Valencia converts religiously and culturally. In time all the kingdom should be turned into Catholic-Catalan, as long as Barcelona is not ceded away. This was the historical situation of all iberian kingdoms.

Case II (fantasy): King Jaume of Aragon has Tarragona (Catholic-Arab-Poor-MT), Valencia (Muslim-Arab-Rich-MT) and Navarra (Catholic-Basque-Average-NMT).

Ressult II: Capital will be placed in Tarragona, until Valencia converts. Two possible outcomes, either the dinasty assimilates with the people of their capital and turns arabic-type, or (rarer) the capital province manages to convert culturally to that of their ruling house (very difficult to nearly impossible, I would say, if the king does not own demesne of that culture to immigrate people from, and still could be very difficult). In the first case, the kingdom will be eventually turn to arabic type culture. In the second case, read case I.

Case III (fantasy): The case of the Sweden king living in Baghdad. It would all depend on the main tittle AND wether he keeps sweedish cultured demesne.

Case IIIA: If the main tittle would be swedish AND he would keep demesne in Sweden

Ressult IIIA: Then cultural conversion could be possible. After all, you are still Sweden centered and even at huge distances, you can yet imagine a colonization program over a century or so, from the lands you control oversees. This really could have happened if the first crusade would have worked other way (for example, if the turks had not slaughtered the mass of emigres in their pass through Anatolia).

Case IIIB: The Sweden cultured king main tittle is King of Mesopotamia... bad luck for his dreams of turning Baghdad in New Stokholm.

Ressult IIIB: Either he is very, very lucky and receives a (should be) very rare event of masse of emigrants from Sweden for a capital cultural conversion, or his house will eventually be converted into the culture of his lands. I would say this should happen 5%/95% of the cases, and then the 5% only if he would keep some demesne of your culture.

Case IV (historical): A german line is appointed through semisalic laws as kings of Hungary. They do have a little province in Germany, but obviously their main tittle and demesne are hungarian. Everybody is catholic, though.

Ressults IV: As mentioned earlier, in a 95% of the cases the king's line will turn hungarian, before Budapest turns German, although still there's the small possibility that over a long time (100-200 years) a very persistant line would slowly crowd the capital with imported german nobility from their origin lands. Again, I insist it will be nearly always be the case that they just turn local.

=================================

I would say this would be the best compromise. I don't know if the capital cultural conversion can be implemented, but still, being able to have a Case I would really help a lot with a more realistic approach to capital placing and cultural conversion. As long as you don't rennounce to your 'roots' it should work this way.

Apart from the 'checking if you have still a demesne province of your culture' (to still have a very distant possibility of triggering a capital conversion event when your main tittle does not match your culture), I think the rest of the rules and effects should be easily implented.

I await your judgement for this idea

.

Casus Belli · May 3, 2005

Lucius, sounds a like a practical approach to the request in my first post - I whole-heartedly approve.

unmerged(21937) · May 3, 2005

Lucius, it's a good plan for this idea, but as said before, it's not that critical improvement and needs Johan, so don't get too excited.

Lucius Sulla · May 3, 2005

Byakhiam said:
Lucius, it's a good plan for this idea, but as said before, it's not that critical improvement and needs Johan, so don't get too excited.

It's alright. I think it would only need a very little tweak code wise (from my knowledge as programmer myself), but the ressults could be very rewarding. Just propose it and we will see in time

.

It still does not solve, though, another issue... since I think a surviving crusader kingdom (as in Kingdom of Jerusalem) would never have turned 'arabic'. I would thus like to suggest a special 'recovered patriarchate sees' cultural conversion, that would only affect one of the former big 5 patriarchated seats that would have a non-christian type culture (that is, Arab or Turk or Mongol... you know, the ones that make the chars look non european), which would be Rome, Byzantium, Antiochia, Jerusalem and Alexandria. This cities could indeed attract masses of pilgrims, that with time could provoke a cultural conversion, and would be the only instance, in my oppinion, that cultural conversion of the province would be equally likely (or even more likely) than cultural conversion of the ruling family.

This would help, for example, to have a surviving kingdom of Jerusalem, that by 1400 would be finally french cultured... but would not affect at all the 'swedish baghdad king' case.

Jerusalem could convert culturally from arab to european, for example, but Baghdad would (practically) never convert from arab to european. Equally a recovered Byzantium, if it had not changed culturally under a turk lord, would stay greek.

Enravota · May 3, 2005

Tumbs up Lucius

!!!!

Lucius Sulla · May 3, 2005

Until we get a possible change, I would say that a good approximation and a nice simulation is to change the culture of your capital in the save game ONLY if its of your same religion AND belongs to your main tittle AND you have other demesne provinces of that same tittle with the culture of your ruler already. With this restrictions, I quite think it does not feel like cheating

.

unmerged(6777) · May 3, 2005

Lucius Sulla said:
It's alright. I think it would only need a very little tweak code wise (from my knowledge as programmer myself), but the ressults could be very rewarding. Just propose it and we will see in time .

Could you then supply the approximate formal logic as to how you'd go about coding it. Use mock C++ (or a reasonable approximation thereof) with descriptive variable names to show the formal logic change you'd use to do it.

Example: A version in "mock code logic" that would set capital to the richest province belonging to that ruler (regardless of anything else) would look something like:

Code:

Determine_Richest_Province()
{
  Integer Province_ID = 0
  Integer Richest_ID = 0
  Float Richest_Income = 0

  While (Province_ID<1003)
  {
  IF (GetProvince_Owner_ID = GetRealm_Ruler_ID )
    {
    IF (GetProvince_Income > Richest_ID)
      {
      Richest_ID = Province_ID;
      Richest_Income = Province_Income;
      }
    }
  Province_ID += 1
  Next
  }
Return Richest_ID
}

So show me how you'd code your suggestion. I suspect you'll need a very large number of lines and it would hardly present a trivial amount of "real" coding (not to mention that it would increase the CPU load if checked very often) since the entire province database file must be checked in each/all cases.

Zander · May 3, 2005

Couldn't the cultural conversion event already in there just get a big MTTH reduction for your capital province? Or is there not a trigger for that?

unmerged(21937) · May 3, 2005

It already has a modifier from capital.

Casus Belli · May 3, 2005

Byakhiam said:
It already has a modifier from capital.

Anyway, that wont necessarily do the trick, as it requires a neighbouring province with the right culture...in Iberia, that province can be 5-6 provinces away.

Mr. T said:
I suspect you'll need a very large number of lines and it would hardly present a trivial amount of "real" coding (not to mention that it would increase the CPU load if checked very often) since the entire province database file must be checked in each/all cases.

If thats the case, we might as well let it drop.

Mr. T: You have my full sympathy, i too spend large parts of my working day explaining to people why a feature isn't "just a matter of a few lines of code"

unmerged(6777) · May 3, 2005

I can see it already...

May 3, 1075 "My lord, Ile de France has fallen to our army!"
May 4, 1075 "My lord, Ile de France has been converted to our religion!"
May 5, 1075 "My lord, let's move our capital to that rich province of Ile de Paris"
May 6, 1075 "My lord, Ile de France has been successfully converted to our culture"
May 7, 2005 ramdom poster: WTF?! Paris is Muslim Arab!!!!!!!!!!!

This game sucks and I'll never play it ever again!

lenny · May 3, 2005

MrT said:
I can see it already...

May 3, 1075 "My lord, Ile de France has fallen to our army!"
May 4, 1075 "My lord, Ile de France has been converted to our religion!"
May 5, 1075 "My lord, let's move our capital to that rich province of Ile de Paris"
May 6, 1075 "My lord, Ile de France has been successfully converted to our culture"
May 7, 2005 ramdom poster: WTF?! Paris is Muslim Arab!!!!!!!!!!! This game sucks and I'll never play it ever again!

You obviously forgot to include that cultural conversion is exclusively for Christians. Just like sea traveling.

Lucius Sulla · May 3, 2005

I think this should do it:

Code:

Determine_Capital()
{
  Integer Province_ID = 0
  Integer Capital_ID = 0
  Integer Ruler_ID = GetRealm_Ruler_ID
  Boolean Belongs_to_main_tittle
  Boolean Belongs_to_main_tittle_prev
  Boolean Same_Religion_as_Ruler
  Boolean Same_Religion_as_Ruler_prev
  Boolean Same_Culture_as_Ruler
  Boolean Same_Culture_as_Ruler_prev

  While (Province_ID<1003)
  {
  IF (GetProvince_Owner_ID(Province_ID) = Ruler_ID )
    {
    Belongs_to_main_tittle = Check_province_in_tittle( Province_ID, GetMain_Tittle_ID(Ruler_ID) )
    Belongs_to_main_tittle_prev = Check_province_in_tittle( Capital_ID, GetMain_Tittle_ID(Ruler_ID) )    
    Same_Religion_as_Ruler = (GetReligion( Province_ID) == GetReligion( Ruler_ID )
    Same_Religion_as_Ruler_prev = (GetReligion( Capital_ID) == GetReligion( Ruler_ID )    
    Same_Culture_as_Ruler = (GetCulture( Province ID ) == GetCulture( Ruler_ID )
    Same_Culture_as_Ruler_prev = (GetCulture( Capital ID ) == GetCulture( Ruler_ID )    
    
    IF Belongs_to_main_tittle
      {       
      IF NOT(Belongs_to_main_tittle_prev)
         {
         ## New province belongs to main tittle while current capital does not
         Capital_ID = Province_ID;
         }
      IF (Belongs_to_main_tittle_prev) AND (Same_Religion_as_Ruler) AND (Same_Culture_as_Ruler)
 	 {
 	 IF NOT( (Same_Religion_as_Ruler_prev) AND (Same_Culture_as_Ruler_prev) )
 	    {
 	    ## New province has same culture & same religion as ruler while current capital does not
 	    Capital_ID = Province_ID;
 	    }
 	 IF (Same_Religion_as_Ruler_prev) AND (Same_Culture_as_Ruler_prev)
 	    {
 	    IF (GetProvince_Income(Province_ID) > GetProvince_Income(CapitalID) )
 	       {## New province is richer
   	       Capital_ID = Province_ID;
 	       } 	    
 	    }
 	 } 
      IF (Belongs_to_main_tittle_prev) AND ((Same_Religion_as_Ruler) XOR (Same_Culture_as_Ruler))
         {
         IF NOT( (Same_Religion_as_Ruler_prev) OR (Same_Culture_as_Ruler_prev) ) 
            {
            ## New province has culture or religion as ruler while current capital does not have either
   	    Capital_ID = Province_ID;        
            }
         }
         IF (Same_Religion_as_Ruler_prev) XOR (Same_Culture_as_Ruler_prev)
            {
 	    IF (GetProvince_Income(Province_ID) > GetProvince_Income(CapitalID) )
 	       {
 	       ## New province is richer
   	       Capital_ID = Province_ID;
 	       }             
            }         
         }
      IF (Belongs_to_main_tittle_prev) AND NOT( (Same_Religion_as_Ruler) OR (Same_Culture_as_Ruler) ) AND NOT( (Same_Religion_as_Ruler_prev) OR (Same_Culture_as_Ruler_prev) )
         {
         IF (GetProvince_Income(Province_ID) > GetProvince_Income(CapitalID) )
            {
            ## New province is richer
            Capital_ID = Province_ID;
            }                   
         }
      }
      
    IF NOT(Belongs_to_main_tittle) AND NOT(Belongs_to_main_tittle_prev)
       {
       IF (Same_Religion_as_Ruler) AND (Same_Culture_as_Ruler)
          {
          IF NOT( (Same_Religion_as_Ruler_prev) AND (Same_Culture_as_Ruler_prev) )
             {
             ## New province has same culture & same religion as ruler while current capital does not
             Capital_ID = Province_ID;
             }
          IF (Same_Religion_as_Ruler_prev) AND (Same_Culture_as_Ruler_prev)
             {
             IF (GetProvince_Income(Province_ID) > GetProvince_Income(CapitalID) )
                {## New province is richer
                Capital_ID = Province_ID;
                } 	    
             }
 	  } 
       IF (Same_Religion_as_Ruler) XOR (Same_Culture_as_Ruler)
          {
          IF NOT( (Same_Religion_as_Ruler_prev) OR (Same_Culture_as_Ruler_prev) )
             {
             ## New province has same culture & same religion as ruler while current capital does not
             Capital_ID = Province_ID;
             }
          IF (Same_Religion_as_Ruler_prev) XOR (Same_Culture_as_Ruler_prev) 
             {
             IF (GetProvince_Income(Province_ID) > GetProvince_Income(CapitalID) )
                {## New province is richer
                Capital_ID = Province_ID;
                } 	    
             }
 	  }  	  

      IF NOT( (Same_Religion_as_Ruler) OR (Same_Culture_as_Ruler) ) AND NOT( (Same_Religion_as_Ruler_prev) OR (Same_Culture_as_Ruler_prev) )
         {
         IF (GetProvince_Income(Province_ID) > GetProvince_Income(CapitalID) )
            {
            ## New province is richer
            Capital_ID = Province_ID;
            }                   
         }
       }
  Province_ID += 1
  Next
  }
Return Capital_ID
}

Was about 1 hour to code and visually check (since I don't have a compiler). It uses some functions, but I think those would be easy to code, if they don't exist already.

unmerged(6777) · May 3, 2005

Lucius Sulla said:
I think this should do it:

<big snip>

Was about 1 hour to code and visually check (since I don't have a compiler). It uses some functions, but I think those would be easy to code, if they don't exist already.

Thanks. I'll ask Johan to have a look at it since in principle I like the suggestion. No promises, you understand...

Lucius Sulla · May 3, 2005

MrT said:
Thanks. I'll ask Johan to have a look at it since in principle I like the suggestion. No promises, you understand...

I understand fully, and I must warn the algorythm may be bugged since I have no means to check it

.

Walter Hawkwood · May 3, 2005

I generally like the "Wave of migration" event idea. An event that offers a chance (maybe 5-10%) for cultural conversion of your overseas province (and maybe raises its prosperity level) for a really high price in gold and maybe prestige could trigger for high-prestige and/or high-piety rulers in non-same-cutured capitals, depicting a popular movement of people that wish to follow their king to his newly-acquired capital. With an option not to support the migrants, with no losses (prestige maybe) and no gains. Christian only, maybe some cultures (like norman, iberian) more effective than others.

That is, if capital relocation algorythm change is not implemented.

unmerged(31117) · May 6, 2005

I can't see why there should be a capital province change beacause it would dis-allow the cultural adaptation of rulers to local customs and culture which I quite like about CK at the moment.

Veldmaarschalk · May 7, 2005

Because converting to a culture means you get the first name from that culture. So you see a lot of Abdullah de Normandie, Hasim Capet and so on.

And alltough people took over certain cultural aspects from the place they lived, naming one's childern arabic wasn't one of them.

But the cultural convertion has no priorty and problably will not change at all, It works the way the guys from Paradox wish and want it.

unmerged(21937) · May 7, 2005

Well, as a CK2 wishlist level suggestion, I would suggest that all cultural conversions wouldn't happen. Maybe even make some more likely. For example, saxon or norman parents getting an english child in english province should be more likely than for example saxon parents in welsh province getting a welsh child. And castillan -> arabic should be either down right impossible or just extremely unlikely.

But as I said, it's CK2 wishlist stuff.

Duuk · May 7, 2005

MrT said:
Could you then supply the approximate formal logic as to how you'd go about coding it. Use mock C++ (or a reasonable approximation thereof) with descriptive variable names to show the formal logic change you'd use to do it.

So show me how you'd code your suggestion. I suspect you'll need a very large number of lines and it would hardly present a trivial amount of "real" coding (not to mention that it would increase the CPU load if checked very often) since the entire province database file must be checked in each/all cases.

Code:

PossibleProvinces = AllDemense;

PossibleProvinces = filter(PossibleProvinces, (: ProvinceCulture == PrimaryCulture :) );

if (!sizeof(PossibleProvinces)) { return SortByRichest(AllDemense); }
  else return SortByRichest(PossibleProvinces);

Fairly simple to make it check for a "primary" use array and, in case that array results in no options, use everything.

That's a quick and dirty set. Me, I'd like to add a few more checks for things like listed above (primary title given weight, etc).

Wouldn't take more than an hour, and that counts testing time.

April 28th BETA: Culture of capital province

Dark Lieutenant of Sauron

Sergeant

Your Industrial Friend

Dark Lieutenant of Sauron

\\\

Dark Lieutenant of Sauron

Field Marshal

General

Your Industrial Friend

Sergeant

Field Marshal

Field Marshal

Dark Lieutenant of Sauron

Field Marshal

Dark Lieutenant of Sauron

Fairy Godfather

Banned

Cool Cat

Your Industrial Friend

Reformed Badboy