April 1st Beta Patch - event 9007 cultural conversion

[Casus Belli]

I have been waiting for this for a while, and set about setting the mtth of the event down to 1 year to test it.

After three years of play, a demesme province converts - Burgos, from Castillan to Castillan.



The reason is probably found in the trigger:

		trigger = {
		condition = { type = same_realm }
		condition = { type = same_religion }
		condition = { type = not
			value = { type = same_culture }
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = not
				value = { type = religion value = pagan }
			}
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = owner
				condition = { type = same_religion }
			}
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = not
				value = { type = owner
					condition = { type = atwar }
				}
			}
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = or
				condition = { type = has_improvement value = { roadnet = yes } }
				condition = { type = has_improvement value = { civilian_harbour = yes } }
			}
		}

which only states that cultures need to be different, not that the culture of the FROM province has to be that of the ruler.

And i had a basque province just next to Burgos.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Good point. Thanks.

/me adds this to the "Fix for next beta patch" list.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

This event just doesn't want to stop being buggy.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

This event just doesn't want to stop being buggy.

I blame it on the general reluctance of cultures to be subsumed into one another. They are stRiking back in the only way they can: by inducing buggy triggers from event scripters.

 

[Green Beret]

Any way we can do a quick fix ourselves for those with the know-how?

 

[Nikolai]

I guess you could, but then your input would not be wanted, as it wouldn't be the beta patch anymore.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Any way we can do a quick fix ourselves for those with the know-how?

Yes.












...though it's not all that quick or easy since - in spite of what it says in the event effects.txt file I do not believe that the province condition same_culture does what the file says it does (it's a p_x_p test, not a province test).

The solution is an ANDed test on the from province's culture and then a csc check to the ruler's culture...and you will need one pair of ANDed tests per culture in the game that you want to allow to spread and these must all be ORed together. If you know what you're doing with that type of thing then you probably understood what I just said and could code it. If you don't, it's probably safest to just leave it the way it is until the next patch (by which time I'll have had time to script it myself).

 

[richvh]

Well, the trigger could be changed from this:

		trigger = {
		condition = { type = same_realm }
		condition = { type = same_religion }
		condition = { type = not
			value = { type = same_culture }
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = not
				value = { type = religion value = pagan }
			}
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = owner
				condition = { type = same_religion }
			}
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = not
				value = { type = owner
					condition = { type = atwar }
				}
			}
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = or
				condition = { type = has_improvement value = { roadnet = yes } }
				condition = { type = has_improvement value = { civilian_harbour = yes } }
			}
		}

to this:

		trigger = {
		condition = { type = same_realm }
		condition = { type = same_religion }
		condition = {
			type = from
			condition = {
				type = same_culture
			}
		}
		condition = {
			type = to
			condition = {
				type = not
				value = {
					type = same_culture
				}
			}
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = not
				value = { type = religion value = pagan }
			}
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = owner
				condition = { type = same_religion }
			}
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = not
				value = { type = owner
					condition = { type = atwar }
				}
			}
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = or
				condition = { type = has_improvement value = { roadnet = yes } }
				condition = { type = has_improvement value = { civilian_harbour = yes } }
			}
		}

My previous revision to the 9007 event used a seperate check for each culture because there was no same_realm trigger condition. With the same_realm trigger condition, you can check each province against the realm culture with the same_culture condition. I used the same_culture check in this way in my old culture conversion mod, so this should work.

If you want to test against the ruler culture rather than the realm culture, then as MrT said, you need a long list of tests against each culture.

MrT, if you'd like me to script this for you, send me the desired behavior by PM or email (spread across realm boundaries or no, culture of province ruler taken into account or no, conversion only to realm culture or no, any other special conditions) and I'll send a working event back to you.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

You can't use "same_culture" condition inside "to" and "from" conditions in prov_x_prov event, afaik.

EDIT4: Tested and no it doesn't appear to work that way. Please don't give suggestions that you have not tested to work.

 

[richvh]

Well, these are the triggers I used in my old cultural spread mod:

	trigger = {
		condition = {
			type = same_realm
		}
		condition = {
			type = from
			condition = {
				type = same_culture
			}
		}
		condition = {
			type = to
			condition = {
				type = not
				value = {
					type = same_culture
				}
			}
		}
	}

Those seemed to work fine back in 1.02 and 1.03, so it wasn't an entirely untested proposal.

Edit: with the MTTH changed to 1 year and my proposed modification edited in, and a top-level ruler with Frankish culture, in less than a year's playing time several provinces bordering Frankish culture provinces of my realm changed to Frankish culture, which was the expected behavior. How did you test, and how did your results conflict with mine?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Seems that I had some other oddity causing it not work in the earlier case.

Latest test proved that it's a working syntax, thanks.

EDIT: So if you want to try this out, replace this part in the trigger:

		condition = { type = not
			value = { type = same_culture }
		}

with this:

		condition = { type = from
			condition = { type = same_culture }
		}
		condition = { type = to
			condition = { type = not
				value = { type = same_culture }
			}
		}

as per Richvh's suggestion.

 

[Frontenac]

I've made the suggested change in the conversion_events.txt file and after 20 years of game play, I have yet to observe a single cultural conversion. Even with a MTTH of 4000 months, Pechneg and Prussian lands should have been easy targets. I'll probably change the MTTH to a very low value (perhaps 25 months) tonight to see what happens.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Don't fall into same pit that I did while testing and remember you need either Road or Civilian Harbour in the target province for it to happen.

 

[Frontenac]

Well, given the current state of the beta patch, the civilian harbour will have to wait for a while... But "Pechnegistan" is currently covered with nice roads which should open the way to Hungarian cultural imperialism.

 

[Frontenac]

I changed the MTTH to 25 months and watched the changes over 25 years of game play. For some reason, cultural change is much slower than one would expect. Even with this short MTTH, good kings and roads and an easily subjugated Pechnegs (0.75 factor) one province in "Pechnegistan" is still of Pechneg culture. It was over 10 years between the first and the second conversion, een though five provinces were possible targets.

Not a single overseas land has culturally converted, I'm not sure if this is WAD or not.

In France, there was some progress of the Frankish culture south of the Loire river, but it's not as massive as one would expect. In Spain, not a single province has converted to Portuguese, Castillan or Catalan culture even though only three counties are still under muslim control. In 25 years with a 25 months (2 years) MTTH!

This leads me to conclude that the current MTTH of 3000 months is MUCH too long despite all the modifiers. I think that a lower value, in the 200 to 300 months range, would result in a cultural "creep" of one province per 75 to 150 years.

I don't know for sure why the MTTH has to be reduced to such a low value; perhaps because the logic is faulty. My theory is that each county being linked to 5-7 others, perhaps the actual chance of the cross province event happening from the "right" province (of your culture in your country) is actually divided by 5-7.

I think that other players should test that to see if they get the same results. Remember: I modified the file with the quick fix described above and further changed the MTTH to 25 (months).

 

[Casus Belli]

I changed the MTTH to 25 months and watched the changes over 25 years of game play. For some reason, cultural change is much slower than one would expect. Even with this short MTTH, good kings and roads and an easily subjugated Pechnegs (0.75 factor) one province in "Pechnegistan" is still of Pechneg culture. It was over 10 years between the first and the second conversion, een though five provinces were possible targets.

Not a single overseas land has culturally converted, I'm not sure if this is WAD or not.

In France, there was some progress of the Frankish culture south of the Loire river, but it's not as massive as one would expect. In Spain, not a single province has converted to Portuguese, Castillan or Catalan culture even though only three counties are still under muslim control. In 25 years with a 25 months (2 years) MTTH!

This leads me to conclude that the current MTTH of 3000 months is MUCH too long despite all the modifiers. I think that a lower value, in the 200 to 300 months range, would result in a cultural "creep" of one province per 75 to 150 years.

I don't know for sure why the MTTH has to be reduced to such a low value; perhaps because the logic is faulty. My theory is that each county being linked to 5-7 others, perhaps the actual chance of the cross province event happening from the "right" province (of your culture in your country) is actually divided by 5-7.

I think that other players should test that to see if they get the same results. Remember: I modified the file with the quick fix described above and further changed the MTTH to 25 (months).

When (what year) did you run your test from?

Looking at the event modifiers, i expect that having a lot of improvements in a province would reduce the mtth considerably, tho i have not calculated what a "fully built province" would do to the mtth.

It does however make perfect sense that cultural spread will be easier late in the game.

But i too had a lot fewer conversions than i expected in the test leading up to my initial post - it may be due to the fact that my "core castillian provinces" was a bit isolated from my new lands in the south by provinces A) muslim, B) not mine (I played Castille, Leon still held their original lands in the north.) or C) a few of them actually lacked a road network.

 

[Frontenac]

The test was ran between 1110 and 1135. While the provinces couldn't be considered as "fully built" they had extensive road networks and a some other improvements so they weren't "barren flatlands" either.

The thing is, few buildings really affect cultural conversion in event 9007: Royal post, Templar house, all churches and the "luxury buildings": Grand Palace, Theater, University. As you cannot expect to build the luxury buildings in all but the richest provinces, you're left with few building modifiers, which reduce the MTTH to 47,2% of its actual value if they're all present.

Therefore, your MTTH of 4000 (333 years) is actually reduced to a "mere" 157 years. Furthermore, a 1.1 adverse modifier is applicable to 12th and 13th centuries, increasing the MTTH to 173 years. Now Pechnegs are considered to be "easily" converted (factor of 0,75). That means that the MTTH is actually 130 years.

OK, Inquisition technlogy will give you a nice 0,6 modifier. But one will wonder what all these Templars, churches and inquisitors have to do with culture. I think that the modifiers need rethinking.

But I still consider that there must be a faulty logic somewhere in the event, because my test shows that cultural diffusion is not as fast (or slow!) as the math above would suggest. Actually, in my MTTH=25 test, with the building modifers listed above + 12th century + Pechneg modifier, actual MTTH would be 9,75 months, that is, the dominant culture should creep by more than one region per month.

That does not reflect my test results at all, as shown in a previous post.

Moreover, I feel that the modifiers, mostly based on religious buildings are historically wrong. Cultural conversion was fastest in culturally poor, sparsely populated and open, flat areas (the Baltic, the steppes) and slower in culturally rich (Spain) or difficult to access land (the Basque in their mountains, for instance).

Modifiers based on the century are difficult to justify when you think that most of the German colonization of the Baltic was OVER by the early 14th century, or that the Vlachs had replaced the Pechnegs in the same time frame - something that is near impossible to recreate right now with the incredibly long MTTH. Actually, the cultural boundaries changed very little after the 14th and 15th century except in culturally poor areas (the steppes) and in some extreme situation (the expulsion of the Moors in Spain, which is beyond the scope of the game).

I therefore think that:
- religious buildings should have nothing or little to do in the final math
- the current century should not be a modifier
- state laws should be emphasized more than they currently are
- some geographical modifiers should be introduced
- some cultural triggers (vernacular litterature, etc) should be used.

That would bring us closer to Solmyr's original patch, which was perhaps a bit too quick it its action, but that was based on sound, realistic ideas. I'll try to think about a new set of modifiers in the next few days. I'd be glad to work with Solmyr on that project if he wants to.

 

[richvh]

That would bring us closer to Solmyr's original patch, which was perhaps a bit too quick it its action, but that was based on sound, realistic ideas. I'll try to think about a new set of modifiers in the next few days. I'd be glad to work with Solmyr on that project if he wants to.

That was my patch, not Solmyr's, and I've already offered to work on this event.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Making Templar Houses and Inquisition a significant factor was to represent how the most "effective" cultural conversions happened. Namely in Spain during Torquemada & pals (just after CK period, but still relevant example) and in the Baltics under Teutonic Order.

 

[Frontenac]

That was my patch, not Solmyr's, and I've already offered to work on this event.

Oops! Sorry about the confusion... Will you compare my list of modifiers to yours if I submit it to you? I'm a better historian than programmer, therefore you could take charge of the final coding of the event.

Biakhyam: I don't know much about the Baltic states and the Teutonic order, but in Spain, the Inquisition was active because the Moors were suspected (often with reason) to still be closet practitionners of Islam. Which would make this more a matter of religious than cultural conversion.

Note that the way the event works right now, the target area must ALREADY share the realm's religion, which supposes that either it was of the same religion to begin with or that it was converted, possibly using a lot of religious buildings. That makes the high MTTH and need for religious buildings redundant for many cultural conversion cases.

Moreover, my feeling is that a strong "national church" should be more a hindrance than a help for cultural conversion, even if both cultures share the same religion. That would be part of the reason why culturally rich moorish Spain resisted assimilation so well, why Occitan culture lasted so long in France and why the religious centers of Russia - Moscow, Kiev and some others weren't absorbed in the Mongol culture (actually, this mongol culture retreated fairly quickly when the better organized, culturally rich Russians gathered the strenght to repell the Hordes there wasn't much of a "national church" opposing them).